Mbna 'agreement' - now threat of legal action

[underdog13]

After a delay of months MBNA have finally deigned to respond to my CCA request; 3 days after they drafted a letter threatening legal action, a charging order and order of sale!

 

The 'agreements' look very much like a blue peter job to me - umpteen different code numbers scattered about.

Edited August 8, 2009 by underdog13
app form deleted

[underdog13]

Optima threatening letter for above account;

[underdog13]

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Edited August 8, 2009 by underdog13

[underdog13]

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Edited August 8, 2009 by underdog13

[underdog13]

For clarity, since it's so hard to read, the codes on the abbey agreement bear a date stamp of 09- 02 beside the 'agreement' and 01/02 under the T&Cs - why would they have two different dates on the same page?

 

Secondly, on the Virgin 'agreement' the date code on the personal info page is 06-02, on the rear under the T&Cs it is 12/01. Again, why two different dates, especially when the date inder the T&Cs is 9 months out of date!

[Windywoo]

These are not from the same document, a blatant example of their copy and paste skills!

 

A plausible agreement would be dated the same, back and front!

[underdog13]

Thanks, Windywoo; my thoughts exactly. I am so incensed by this obvious forgery, I will fight it all the way and am prepared to state in court that I believe it is fraudulent - if I end up saddled with a huge costs order, well that's the risk I will have to take.

 

What I'd really like to do is prove them guilty of fraud -surely we could garner enough evidence between the people on this site to at least introduce an element of doubt and hopefully convince the authorities to investigate further - or am I just being terribly naive?

[underdog13]

Another howler I forgot to mention; on the Virgin agreement they have date stamped it (which I believe is their 'signature') a month earlier than when it was actually sent back to them.

[Windywoo]

 

What I'd really like to do is prove them guilty of fraud -surely we could garner enough evidence between the people on this site to at least introduce an element of doubt and hopefully convince the authorities to investigate further - or am I just being terribly naive?

 

Excellent idea underdog!

 

As they have supplied me with a similarly concocted "agreement" it would be great to expose this company for their underhanded tactics and complete disregard for the law, however getting enough people to complain and convince the powers that be......mmmmm!!

[underdog13]

Excellent idea underdog!

 

As they have supplied me with a similarly concocted "agreement" it would be great to expose this company for their underhanded tactics and complete disregard for the law, however getting enough people to complain and convince the powers that be......mmmmm!!

 

It would certainly be a struggle, no doubt about that; but I'd still like to try. If I lived anywhere near Chester I would be willing to take a job at Chester Towers just to get the inside scoop - that's how angry I am, lol.

 

I saw one really blatant forgery (can't remember the thread now, curse my goldfish memory), where MBNA had tacked the same column of prescribed terms on to someones application form and the two backgrounds didn't even match. Their copy and paste skills are improving; small wonder, really, they've had plenty of practice!

[cosalt]

Hi Underdog,

 

I have had a close look at them, however it is very difficult to see without actually seeing in the flesh what they have sent. Here is what I can determine.

 

Agreement 1.

 

If we assume there was nothing on the left of the document beforehand they would have had to reduce down the right to fit them on. Is you signature and or the writing the same size as normal or does it look shrunk ? Can you compare the text between the two sides, when you copy a copy ( or copy a print off of a scanned image ) you will get an uneven out line of the text, the letters will not look properly formed, is this consisitant left to right. I would say this is most definately not a copy of an original, the black around the outside is where they have left up the lid on the scanner whilst scanning them in, the sort of thing they would do when scanning hundreds of documents for archiving. This same black mark would appear if they had copied the original with the lid up, however they would likely to have been just copying your document at the time so human nature would mean they had time to shut the lid. I would say this is a print out of a scanned document. If this has been cut & pasted it was most probably before it was scanned in. You need to confirm any difference between the text left to right. Is there any mention about terms on the back or similar which would confirm the ones on the left were not there originaly.

 

Agreement 2.

 

Again almost definately a printout of a scanned document, this is not a copy of the original, the back looks highly suspect, the terms and conditions are so close to the top with a big gap at the bottom, again look at the text, is it much clearer on one side ? There is nothing to link the front and back together, does any text on the front say anything about terms on the back. That could be the back of any agreement ?

 

 

Of course there is nothing to say they have not bodged up both agreements, then scanned them in and printed them out. Although this is unlikely I would have thought.

 

I hope this info helps, sorry I can't be more definate without seeing in the flesh what they sent you, which is obviously not possible. Perhaps we should organise a conference.

 

I have just sent a letter to MBNA asking if I can view an original of my agreements at there offices ! Should be interesting !

 

Cosalt

[underdog13]

Thanks for that brilliantly helpful reply, Cosalt:D

 

In the Abbey agreement the text in the left hand column is a different size to every piece of text in the right hand side; the fine print on the right is smaller and the standard lettering on the right is larger than that in the left column.

 

The letters are not properly formed - it's bad on the right side, even worse in the left hand column.

 

There is absolutely no mention of T&Cs overleaf in either document, indeed, both agreements state 'I have received a copy of the T&Cs' which suggests to me that the terms were in fact in a different document! Both agreements tell me to read condition 11 - T&Cs on the actual agreement only go up to 2.4. If it was so important that I read this, why wouldn't it have been included in the column of terms on the agreement?

 

The second agreement (Virgin) has absolutely nothing to link the front page to the back. Text is different sizes and the right hand column is a much poorer quality - virtually unreadable. The spacings do indeed look very peculiar. There is a reference on the rear page of the Virgin agreement that says 'see leaflet enclosed for further details', most odd when there are a cloumn of details right next to that quote!

 

Your info has been fantastically helpful, Cosalt; I would feel much happier raising these points with a judge rather than simply stating 'it looks wrong to me and I think it's a forgery'! I understand you can't be definate without seeing the copy I received, but I think the very relevant points you raised has covered it. Would love to organise a conference - all us caggers comparing their dodgy agreements, then raising the issue with the relevant authorities:D

 

Like you, I was thinking of writing to MBNA requesting a view of my original agreement at their offices. Now. I wonder what their response will be;)

[Chalkitup]

Hello underdog13,

 

Thanks for your PM ... I have looked at your agreements and they are of the same pattern that other Caggers have received.

It is strange that suddenly Caggers are receiving these agreements with the prescribed terms column.

But MBNA are taking a great risk if these are made up as some people took copies of their original agreements before they sent the originals back to MBNA. I just wish MBNA would send me a dodgy agreement as I have all my copies.

 

I will follow your thread now and see what occurs and help in any way I can.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[underdog13]

Thanks ever so much Chalkitup, for your interest and offer of help.

 

How I wish I had had your foresight and copied all my application forms! I agree that it is very odd that we are all suddenly receiving 'agreements' with the same column of prescribed terms. The arrogance of these companies is breath taking - as you say, they are taking a huge risk.

[fleeced_by_rbos]

I just had an interesting thought. Shouldn't we all have copies of the agreement provided by MBNA?

 

This is one of the problems of an application form being considered to be an agreement. Whenever you sign a contract you get a copy. If you don't get a copy of your application form then how can you be sure what they send you is the original or anything like it? This may be a nice legal point.

 

I filled in an application form for a Virgin card in motorway service station! I of course didn't get the chance to make a photocopy and never received any other forms or contracts - just the card in the post. My agreement is also rather dodgey - prescribed terms on the back of the application form, all photocopied of course with nothing to tie them together and no room for a signature from MBNA to execute the agreement.

 

Underdog, your application form doesn't appear to have a signature box for MBNA either or am I going blind?!

 

Oh yeh, I love the "We strongly recommend Payment Protection Cover" - ha, I bet they do!

[underdog13]

Good to have you onboard FBR.

 

Nope, your eyes do not deceive you, there is no signature box for mbna on either the abbey or the virgin agreement/ application form.

 

You made a good point - every other contract you sign, you do expect a copy, don't you?

 

By the way, the prescribed terms on the back of your dodgy agreement - do they carry a date stamp in the bottom right hand corner of 12/01, by any chance?

[annoyedagain]

i believe mbna have done the same to me, i have a different address for mbna on the front and back and i still have the original top half which appears to match up along the torn edge with the front of the copy they sent but not the back

 

could you please take a look and give me your opinion

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/173383-your-opinions-cca-please.html

 

im sure they are winging it a bit and could soon be exposed

 

is there anyway we can get to see our originals? im not too far from chester so wouldn't mind taking a visit

[fleeced_by_rbos]

Good to have you onboard FBR.

 

Nope, your eyes do not deceive you, there is no signature box for mbna on either the abbey or the virgin agreement/ application form.

 

You made a good point - every other contract you sign, you do expect a copy, don't you?

 

By the way, the prescribed terms on the back of your dodgy agreement - do they carry a date stamp in the bottom right hand corner of 12/01, by any chance?

 

Mine looks like it has the date 11/02 and specifies charges of £20 which would have been correct at the time I applied I think, although there is no way to be sure the application form and the prescribed terms on the back of it are part of the same original document.

[underdog13]

Well at least they've managed to vary their date stamps for once - I've seen so many agreements/ app forms with 12/01 stamped under the same stuck on columns of terms I was begining to think they were the only ones they had. The 12/01 stamp on mine didn't correspond with my application!

[annoyedagain]

has anyone challenged these forgery's yet?

 

im just trying to decide my next step

[underdog13]

I'm contacting the police in the next couple of days - will try to persuade them to have a look. I'll update the thread with any developments.

[atwozee]

Very interesting UD – I have a very similar agreement to your Virgin one but the reference numbers on mine are different (AFMD61 and E V5 04/02) Also I have an extra section under the “About your finances” section (bank account details and income)

 

The reverse (alleged!) of the agreement is again almost the same as yours – there is a large black rectangle bottom left (like yours) but the text “Go on, you know you want to” is missing – now I find that very odd indeed.

 

I’ve given this a lot of thought and I think that MBNA are being very creative with their “copies” of agreements. If the original agreements have been destroyed and they only copied the front of the documents then they are going to have a difficult time proving anything was on the back, especially if there are different versions floating around.

 

One more thing – not many people know this but the document itself would have been mass produced by a specialist printer. When the printer sets up the print run they will have started the process with an original artwork file – now depending on how the documents were printed depends on how the artwork file is stored (there could be digital artwork files or printing plates or both) so if you really want to know what was on the back then that could be established by the company that printed the documents – most printing companies will keep copies of artwork in digital form (at least) for many years (in case they have to print the job again or refer to the artwork to correct a mistake on the first print run) and this artwork file will have details of what was printed on the front and on the back (that’s the real reason for the reference numbers on the documents - traceability)

 

Basically, what I am saying is that these documents aren’t just thrown together or printed via a desktop printer in the office – they are printed professionally by the thousands and the printer has a process in place to prove what was printed on the back. Now if the printer can’t verify that the document is accurate then they are well and truly stuffed aren’t they.

 

Of course if they can prove what was on the back then that goes against us but in the case of the MBNA agreements I would be pretty confident that the documents they have produced are not a fair representation of the original.

[underdog13]

That is brilliant news Atwozee - realised they would be prof printed, but did not realise they (printers) would keep files for very long or that the code numbers were linked to the printers.

 

More for the police to look into - the game is afoot:D

 

Thanks so much for that, atwozee - more grist to the mill;) Isn't it amazing what caggers can come up with when they put their heads together? My learning curve is certainly in the steep ascendant!

[angel_1]

I'm contacting the police in the next couple of days - will try to persuade them to have a look. I'll update the thread with any developments.

 

 

hiya underdog

 

im subbing to this ,,,and if the police could get interested then we all could send samples of what we all had and let them investigate our concerns, at the end of the day like atwozee also states about the printing info, that could be a legal lead they could follow up

 

i guess you could compare it with say like printing money,,,, and very serious is that, my copies look like they have only forwarded to me the bottom half and supposed rear side of the bottom half too

 

so im with you on this, good luck and take care

 

laters angel x:)

[underdog13]

Thanks, angel -glad to have your support.

 

We seem to be thinking along the same lines; I thought if I could get the police interested in mine, I could refer to other cases - with peoples' permission, of course. The more examples we can proffer, the weightier our case, hopefully.