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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Mbna 'agreement' - now threat of legal action


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So are you the one with the poodle or the yappy yorkshire terrier CB?:D;)

 

Ah, now that would be telling wouldnt it:p

 

I sent a message last night to the team but not heard anything yet maybe it was because I used the red triangle instead of a PM to a site team member ?

 

Ill give it until the morning if i still hear nothing ill PM a site team member instead.

 

Regards

 

PF

 

I guess it all depends what you asked when you clicked on the red triangle, PF. Generally the reason for hitting that is to bring a particular post/important question/cry for urgent help to the attention of the site team. :)

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PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Ah, now that would be telling wouldnt it:p

 

 

 

I guess it all depends what you asked when you clicked on the red triangle, PF. Generally the reason for hitting that is to bring a particular post/important question/cry for urgent help to the attention of the site team. :)

 

but the under the msg box it says:

 

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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but the under the msg box it says:

 

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.

 

 

dx

 

 

This is absolutely true. However, as long as some discretion has been used in the clicking then it can be used where an urgent response is requested, especially where a person has an ongoing court case and is up against a deadline.

 

The site team are few and the requests for help are many. Sometimes a thread can get lost.

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PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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I have a mbna/virgin agreement dated 2002 similair to the ones posted above recently provided after 2 months by 1st Credit. I also am sure that it is a cut and paste job, if for nothing else that any graphic designer would produce such a messy back page.

 

Anyway, reading the letter from 1st Credit, they admit that they have sent me an 'edited' version. There's no way that is a compliant version under the terms of a CCA request then.

 

Upon closer inspection of the small print in the rh column, it refers to various sections that are not present.

 

Think thats them stuffed.

 

appfront.jpg

 

backofagreement.jpg

 

letterfrom1stwitheditedinfofrommbna.jpg

 

Any thoughts?

Edited by Nomore Baloney
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Exactly what do they mean by "edited"....

 

Under no circumstances would I send them a copy of a driving licence or passport.

 

If they are uncertain who you are, why have they been writing begging letters to you for so long ?.

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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It looks like a template to be honest so most of it is irrelevant. But it probably does why everyone has been getting upset about their stuff from MBNA which is the same as mine.

 

If 1st credit are admitting they are editing the information required under the CCA requests, surely that is illegal?

 

Either way, it makes them all unenforcable IMHO.

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Hmm Is it worth asking what exactly! they have edited out/in?

 

After all if they've provided a copy which has your signature/your address/the OC's signature... what else worth leaving out is there and therefore the editing must have been to add something?

 

Under the Important Data Protection part it states you must "read condition 13 in the terms & conditions provided" implying its a separate sheet that was sent thus enforcing the prescribed terms being in a seperate booklet as you suggest.

 

Also was your credit limit shown in the apr table? if not and if no statement declaring how to work out the apr if its not listed in the table then thats another possible avenue of unenforcability according to PT

 

From pt2537

 

let me expand slightly

 

The law as we all know requires a "A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement"

 

So on the MBNA agreement it says £1000, £3000 & £5000 yes?

 

and under each amount of credit it says the various rates , Yes?

 

So what if your credit limit isnt there?

 

What if your credit limit was £10,000? £15,000 ???

 

there is nothing within the agreement to qualify the rate of interest if your credit limit isnt set out on the agreement? with me so far?

 

So MBNA may try and argue that the full details are found in a set of terms and conditions somewhere which we dont know about blah blah blah

 

Well that angle fails at the first hurdle as the Agreement Regulations , at Reg 2(4) requires all this info to be set out as a whole and not interspersed with other info so it cannot be set out elsewhere

 

so if your credit limit was different to that stated on your agreement KERCHING:wink:

 

does that help???????????????

PmW
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It looks like a template to be honest so most of it is irrelevant. But it probably does why everyone has been getting upset about their stuff from MBNA which is the same as mine.

 

If 1st credit are admitting they are editing the information required under the CCA requests, surely that is illegal?

 

Either way, it makes them all unenforcable IMHO.

 

They are allowed to remove "certain" items that pertain to security.. i.e. signature box, names/addresses... anything else is a no-no according to a "true-copy" according to the regs as far as I understand it.

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I think I will write back asking them what has been edited, because as it stands, the info they have supplied is in no way an enforceable agreement as it is missing several important prescribed terms.

 

Also, it is not a 'true' copy as stipulated in the '74 CCA.

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In their first paragraph, a) they want you to verify that's your signature and they'll send a you a complete copy.

 

I would just confirm that and see what you get back as a complete copy:confused:

 

Am about to do it myself:-x

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I think they have edited out a couple of sensitive details on the front (but not very well!) at least that’s what they did on mine – mothers maiden name and bank details.

I wrote to them asking them to confirm if the reverse of the document is an exact copy – see what they come back with.

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Good idea NB, please keep us posted on any replies you get.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread a bit, but if they are sending out info similair to the stuff I have recieved, and in the small print it says 'edited' then I would guess thats its not fraudulent, but very misleading.

 

Anyway, I will keep you all posted.

 

Interestingley, in a previous letter from 1st C, they told me that I shouldn't use info or templates from unregulated forums as the info is often wrong and that I should use a solicitor or CAB.

 

Watchdog would love them. Rogue traders would love them even more.

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Hehe Nomore,

 

And remember we shouldn't receive threats from unregulated DCA's

Finally if you succeed with your claim please consider a donation to consumer action group as those donations keep this site alive.

 R.I.P BOB aka ROOSTER-UK you have always been a Gent on these boards and you will be remembered for that.

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Sorry to hijack your thread a bit, but if they are sending out info similair to the stuff I have recieved, and in the small print it says 'edited' then I would guess thats its not fraudulent, but very misleading.

 

Anyway, I will keep you all posted.

 

Interestingley, in a previous letter from 1st C, they told me that I shouldn't use info or templates from unregulated forums as the info is often wrong and that I should use a solicitor or CAB.

 

Watchdog would love them. Rogue traders would love them even more.

 

No worries - hi jack away;):)

 

I think it is how and why they intend to mislead you; if they are attempting to make an uneneforceable agreement enforceable, then they are misleading to seek financial gain and that's fraud:D

 

Found this on another thread;

 

The Fraud Act is small as it contains only 16 sections plus 3 schedules.

 

All Theft Act deception offences are abolished to be replaced by 3 new fraud offences: fraud by misrepresentation.......fraud by failing to disclose information and fraud by abuse of position..

 

Under section 1 a person is guilty of fraud if they are in breach of any offences in sections 2,3,4.

 

Under Section 2 representation must be made dishonestly which is established under the two-stage test as set out in Rv Gosh (1982) QB 1053, 75 Cr App R 154 in which the defendant was dishonest by the standards of ordinary people

 

Subsection (1)(b) requires that the representation is made with the intention of making a gain for himself or causing a loss or risk of loss to another. Loss and gain are defined in section 5 as being money or property

 

Section 3: Fraud by failing to disclose information

18. Section 3 makes it an offence to commit fraud by failing to disclose information to another person where there is a legal duty to disclose the information. A legal duty to disclose information may include duties under oral contracts as well as written contracts. The concept of "legal duty" is explained in the Law Commission's Report on Fraud, which said at paragraphs 7.28 and 7.29:

"7.28 ..Such a duty may derive from statute (such as the provisions governing company prospectuses), from the fact that the transaction in question is one of the utmost good faith (such as a contract of insurance), from the express or implied terms of a contract, from the custom of a particular trade or market, or from the existence of a fiduciary relationship between the parties (such as that of agent and principal).

 

7.29 For this purpose there is a legal duty to disclose information not only if the defendant's failure to disclose it gives the victim a cause of action for damages, but also if the law gives the victim a right to set aside any change in his or her legal position to which he or she may consent as a result of the non-disclosure. For example, a person in a fiduciary position has a duty to disclose material information when entering into a contract with his or her beneficiary, in the sense that a failure to make such disclosure will entitle the beneficiary to rescind the contract and to reclaim any property transferred under it."

 

More specifically, section 3 states:

 

3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he-

(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information

(i) to make a gain for himself or another

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss

 

Gain and Loss Specified

 

5 "Gain" and "loss"

(1) The references to gain and loss in sections 2 to 4 are to be read in accordance with this section.

 

(2) "Gain" and "loss"-

 

(a) extend only to gain or loss in money or other property;

 

(b) include any such gain or loss whether temporary or permanent;

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Hi All

 

I am going through a similar process with first credit and received this letter, you might want to check my thread to see my reply and their subsequent response.........

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/175080-virgin-card-mbna-cca.html

 

Your views on this and the way to progress would be appreciated but at the very least it will give you some indication of 1st Credits next move.

 

Bozalt

__________________________________________

I came into this world with nothing and I still have most of it left.

__________________________________________

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Nomore, I wonder if it would be worth you telephoning the ICO and see what they have to say about all of this.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Nomore, I wonder if it would be worth you telephoning the ICO and see what they have to say about all of this.

 

The ICO have just squeezed my SAR out of MBNA at last but they QUOTE are unable to look into requests made under the CCA UNQUOTE

 

They suggest I try the OFT for that :mad:

 

I think the CPR route is the only one for that:?

Edited by AA99
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MBNA sent an identical copy of my alleged agreement in my SAR agreement which they had sent in response to my original CCA request implying but not actually saying that the two pages photocopied on the back and front of same page are part of the same document,They imply that my application form has a page overleaf which has prescribed terms on it,It is worrying that they still implying this on a sar request CCA as i thought a sar had to be represented more accuaratly .However a few weeks i wrote to them to ask them to confirm that the two pages were part of the same document and for an appointment to view document if it was,You would have though even if they did not write back to arrange an appointment for me to view it they would at least have the courtsey to reply and to also confim whether those two pages are attached:mad:

Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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