council is attempting to claim that they overpaid me housing benefit for the period in which I used to live there

[DevilWearsPrimark]

As a single adult you are only entitled to the one bedroom rate, so that is all they will pay. You may be able to claim discretionary housing payments to make up the difference for a limited time whilst you find somewhere smaller/cheaper.

[Alastrum]

Thanks. I can see we're going to have to try and work through this, rather than moving out. In fact, just yesterday, I got a sniff of a potential job, which would greatly ease our situation (more money, me out of the house for the day etc), so here's hoping!

[Alastrum]

I'm resurrecting this thread again, as a very worrying development has occurred.

I attended and won a tribunal back in January this year. I never heard a single thing back from the Council over it, and I have spent this year thinking the matter was now finally over.

Today, however, I have received a letter from the Tribunals Service, stating that the Council apparently appealed to have the Tribunal judgement set aside, and a new hearing held, on the grounds that there was no representative from the Council present at the original hearing! This is bizarre! The original hearing was held right across the road from the Council's offices, while I had to make a round trip of almost 4 hours to get there and back, yet they still couldn't send anyone.

 

The new hearing is set for mid-November. I have not received any copy of any further evidence the Council wishes to present, so I assume they are just going to present their old evidence, which the previous Tribunal thought unsatisfactory.

 

What do people think? What are my chances of losing this time round? How can they just keep trying until they get the result they want?

 

As far as my own circumstances are concerned, I'm living solely on Working Tax Credit at the moment, as work has been very thin on the ground. I'm hoping that will change soon, but I'm really not in a position to pay anything.

[Consumer dude]

I have been reading your thread with intrest and you could'nt really make this up could yer ? If it was me I would have it postponed until further notice on the grounds that I would need to retrive all the paper work from the archives. I am my self having an issue at the moment with local authority and tribunal and because of this I would like to know how you get on. Take care..

[lexis200]

I can't offer any advice about your chances (although they would seem good if they've got no new evidence!), but I would certainly ask the court if it can be held near your home.

 

Seeing as they couldn't be bothered to send anyone last time despite the council offices being minutes away, I'd bring that point up, plus the long trip for you which you would have to fund with your working tax credits either for petrol or public transport.

 

I hope this time it gets put to bed.

[Surfer01]

Have a look at The Housing Benefit Regulations 2006 especially Part 13 section 100 regarding overpayments. If an "official mistake" they can go suck eggs as you will not be liable. We won our case and they wrote off nearly £1700. At no time were we at fault!

Edited October 15, 2009 by Surfer01

[Alastrum]

Thanks for your responses. You're right: you couldn't make it up, this councils level of incompetence just beggars belief.

 

Although they will pay my travel expenses to the tribunal, it's the loss of time that is still an issue; that's a good idea about asking if it can be held nearer to where I'm living now. I'll try that.

 

I have also been thinking about getting it postponed. As I had assumed the matter was now finished with, I no longer have any copies of the original paperwork pertaining to the case, so am unable to prepare. It seems to me that I should, in all fairness, have been informed months ago that the council was intending to appeal, and that the outcome of that appeal was to be decided on such and such a date, in advance, rather than just waiting until afterwards to tell me that they have decided there is going to be another hearing. I have no idea when they made these decisions.

 

As far as the Housing Benefit regs go, yes, that's precisely our argument, which the judge in the original hearing agreed with: that the council had made a series of "official errors" and the money was not recoverable, regardless of whether it was an "overpayment" or not. The fact that the Council didn't send a representative shouldn't even be an issue, as their evidence was still reviewed by the judge: you don't win these things by default just because your opponent doesn't show up, it's not a ******* tennis match!

[Surfer01]

I am also sure that very recently there was a high court case where the judge rules that overpaymenst could not be clawed back. I know the article was in an online newspaper but cannot think of it. This was blanket with the only exclusion being fraud. This would obviously set a precedent and woulod work in your favour if you could find the case. it was not an individual but rather a organisation that brought up the case.

[Surfer01]

Found it. Have a look at http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/benefits-tax-credits-minimum/225943-great-news-all-us.html

[Alastrum]

Yes I saw that yesterday, and while it is great news, it actually applies specifically to payments that had already been deemed 'not recoverable': the DWP had a habit of trying to make people feel guilty and asking for them to pay it back anyway. But if it's been deemed not recoverable, you don't have to pay it back whatever they say. This is obviously why my council are insisting there has not been an error and that the money is therefore recoverable. Unfortunately for them, there have been many errors, and the original judge agreed with that. Why on earth they want another crack at it, I don't know.

[Alastrum]

Hi again,

 

I'm resurrecting this old thread because there has been another development. To save people from rereading all the old posts, here's the situation in brief: in Sept 2007 I left my old rented property and moved to a new borough. Some time later my old council contacted me and asserted they had overpaid me housing benefit and they wanted it back. I disputed, and it eventually went to tribunal in Jan 2009, where I won, due to the council's persistent incompetence in dealing with my claim for housing benefit.

 

In Oct 2009 I received a letter from the Tribunals service saying that the council had appealed, and a new tribunal was to be held in Nov 2009. I objected to this, as I had received no notice that there was even going to be an appeal, and had no time to prepare. It did no good, I did not attend the second tribunal (too far away etc), and I lost part of the appeal, and was told I'd have to repay the council £600 (they had been originally claiming £1500). I was told I was not allowed to appeal.

 

However, since then, I heard absolutely nothing from the council. They made no steps to recover payment at all. Since Nov 2009, no phone calls, no letters, nothing. So I just forgot about it. Until today, when i got home to find a letter saying someone from Phoenix Commercial Collections had called to collect the apparent debt.

 

So, where do I stand? What legal powers does the Tribunal have? Can this still be enforced after all this time? Is this DCA actually working on behalf of the council, or have they simply purchased the debt from them?

 

Once again, your advice would be most welcome.

[ErikaPNP]

Government debts are slightly different in terms of statue barring. It can be enforced until 6 years have passed from the date of the final decision, so that takes you up to November 2015.

 

Phoenix collect on behalf of some local authorities.

[Alastrum]

OK fine, but I dispute that I have to pay £600 in the first place, but wasn't allowed to appeal the tribunal decision. As I said, I won the first tribunal: the only reason the council appealed was on the grounds that they didn't send a representative to the first tribunal. So, given the fact exactly the same evidence was presented by both sides, why did I win one, and lose another? I want the opportunity to argue my case... am I better off letting them take me to court?

[ErikaPNP]

No, because then you will incur court costs in addition. The decision of an upper tribunal is binding, unless you a person goes for a judicial review but the time limit for that has well surpassed (three months). They may or may not take you to court for it. They can also make deductions from any future benefit (including pension). Even after 6 years have passed, they can make deductions to your benefit. The 6 years is the time they have to take civil proceedings against you for the debt, but there is no time limit on them being able to take deductions from benefit.

 

I can't give you the answers that you seek, all I can say is that an appeal to the upper tribunal can only suceed if the first tier tribunal erred in law in their decision - in other words, the decision of the first tier tribunal was incorrect in law. I don't know why or how, as only the people who have access to your file could tell you that.

[Alastrum]

I was never told I could seek a judicial review. I was simply told there was no right of appeal, even though the council had a right to appeal. Why do they get to appeal and I don't? Doesn't seem a very fair process to me. We had a tribunal and I won. Then without me being informed, the council sought, and got, an appeal. I wasn't sent any copies of any new evidence, couldn't attend on the day, and was simply told they'd (partly) won afterwards. Then they do nothing for nearly 2 years then send debt collectors to my door???? I disputed there even was an overpayment in the first place, and the first tribunal agreed with me. I just don't understand how this all got completely reversed, especially without my involvement or agreement. Surely a tribunal is meant to be a form of arbitration: in other words, both parties agree to abide by the decision of the tribunal? But I didn't agree to a second tribunal, so how can it be considered arbitration?

 

So what legal powers does a tribunal have? It's not a court, so does it have the powers of a court? If the council want money off me, then surely they can only get it if they win a proper court case? They can't take any from benefits as I'm no longer on benefits. Is this just yet more of the usual DCA scare tactics seen elsewhere on this site, or is this a real threat?

[dx100uk]

yes

it has no legal standing, as such.

[A tribunal's decision is binding in law unless a higher authority overturns that decision.

 

Granted, they cannot force you to repay as that is a matter that the council can take via the county court (unless you goes back on benefit or they wait for you to draw your pension in which case they can legitimately make deductions) but the overpayment decision certainly stands. If phoenix or the council were to take the civil route it would not be barred by statute as the final decision on the overpayment made by the tribunal will allow civil action up until 2015

 

 

but yes dca scare tactics too

 

.

 

dx

[Alastrum]

Hi,

 

Not sure if this is quite the right place for this, but here's the situation:

 

I'm on a low income, and I receive Working Tax Credit, Housing Benefit, and Council Tax Benefit. For the past month, my Housing Benefit has been suspended while being reviewed (just a normal annual review, after I'd sent in my Tax Return, bank statements etc).

 

The Council are taking their time, which is unusual as they're normally quite efficient. I've emailed them twice last week as I was growing concerned that they wouldn't finish their review in time for my next due rent payment on 28th Feb. They didn't respond to either email, and I heard nothing.

 

Concerned that I wouldn't be able to meet my rent (I rely on Housing Benefit for about 75% of my rent), I borrowed £1000 from a family member, which was paid into my account on Friday evening.

 

I woke up this morning to discover that the Council have TAKEN over £826 from my account by Direct Debit, completely unexpectedly. This has left me hundreds of pounds overdrawn, and of course means that the standing order for my rent has failed. At a single stroke, I'm almost £2000 in debt and under threat of losing my home.

 

Until I speak to the council later today I don't know what has happened. I'm guessing that, because my HB is suspended, they've decided to take all of my remaining Council Tax in one go. Or perhaps, in their review, they've decided that I've been overpaid?

 

Whichever it is, my concern here is are they allowed to do this? I had a Direct Debit set up with them to pay my Council tax. That DD was set up with a specific agreement as to how much they would take (£20 a month). Surely by exceeding that amount so vastly, without any prior warning, they have broken the DD agreement?

 

Even if they have decided I've been overpaid, and have decided to take back what they consider they are owed, how can they simply raid my account without any prior warning or agreement, using the Direct Debit system as simply a means of access to my bank account?

 

If they can, then this means that the Direct Debit system is not fit for purpose, as it simply giving anyone a key to your account and an open invitation to help themselves to as much as they like. This can't be right, surely?

 

Any advice welcome. Many thanks.

[scubajoe]

Hi,

 

Not sure if this is quite the right place for this, but here's the situation:

 

I'm on a low income, and I receive Working Tax Credit, Housing Benefit, and Council Tax Benefit. For the past month, my Housing Benefit has been suspended while being reviewed (just a normal annual review, after I'd sent in my Tax Return, bank statements etc).

 

The Council are taking their time, which is unusual as they're normally quite efficient. I've emailed them twice last week as I was growing concerned that they wouldn't finish their review in time for my next due rent payment on 28th Feb. They didn't respond to either email, and I heard nothing.

 

Concerned that I wouldn't be able to meet my rent (I rely on Housing Benefit for about 75% of my rent), I borrowed £1000 from a family member, which was paid into my account on Friday evening.

 

I woke up this morning to discover that the Council have TAKEN over £826 from my account by Direct Debit, completely unexpectedly. This has left me hundreds of pounds overdrawn, and of course means that the standing order for my rent has failed. At a single stroke, I'm almost £2000 in debt and under threat of losing my home.

 

Until I speak to the council later today I don't know what has happened. I'm guessing that, because my HB is suspended, they've decided to take all of my remaining Council Tax in one go. Or perhaps, in their review, they've decided that I've been overpaid?

 

Whichever it is, my concern here is are they allowed to do this? I had a Direct Debit set up with them to pay my Council tax. That DD was set up with a specific agreement as to how much they would take (£20 a month). Surely by exceeding that amount so vastly, without any prior warning, they have broken the DD agreement?

 

Even if they have decided I've been overpaid, and have decided to take back what they consider they are owed, how can they simply raid my account without any prior warning or agreement, using the Direct Debit system as simply a means of access to my bank account?

 

If they can, then this means that the Direct Debit system is not fit for purpose, as it simply giving anyone a key to your account and an open invitation to help themselves to as much as they like. This can't be right, surely?

 

Any advice welcome. Many thanks.

Under the banks DD guarantee they must give you prior notice of how much they intend to collect. As they presumably haven't do so they are in breach of the guarantee scheme so just go to the bank and tell them and they should recall the payment and refund it to your account. You will need to put it in writing.

[Alastrum]

I have been into my bank this morning, and they agree that the DD guarantee has been broken. Unfortunately, that particular branch has a power cut this morning, so can't reverse the DD for me. They've told me that if I go to another branch before 3pm and explain the situation, I should be able to get this reversed today.

[Mr.P]

Once you have been to the bank, you need to pay a visit to the LA and find out why:

 

1. They have taken such a large sum in one go.
   
2. They did not inform you of the amount in good time.
   

Do not leave until you have had an acceptable explanation and an offer to compensate for any bank charges incurred.

 

I do wonder why you have £826 outstanding for the remainder of the year - It sounds a lot just for six weeks...

[Alastrum]

It is indeed baffling, and I intend to speak to the Council today about it. The good news is that my bank agreed that the terms of the DD have been breached, and they reversed the DD there and then.

When I returned from the bank, I found a letter from the council telling me that I was £40 in arrears with my Council Tax, and that they would be taking steps to recover the outstanding amount, which is just over £300.

 

So, 1) if they feel they can raid my account with impunity, why not simply take the £40 arrears and bring me up to date? And 2) if the total remaining for the year is only £300, why did they take over £800?

In either case, there's still no clue as to how the figure of £800+ was arrived at, nor is its even mentioned.

[Mr.P]

You need to deal with the £40 arrears with some urgency to avoid the LA slapping on extra charges for Liability Orders and bailiff fees. If needs be, pay the £40 in cash at their office (getting a receipt for it) whilst getting answers to the outstanding questions regarding the £826 raided from your account.

 

Adequate answers are required as to their actions to date, and I'd certainly be asking for compensation to cover any bank charges incurred. But do not withhold payments as the LA can and will get their money and add excessive "fees" on top.

[firstship]

We need a complete reform of the DD system (1) if they intend to ask for more than the agreed amount they should by law be required to advise you 14 days beforehand and be able to prove they advised you.

 

A Standing Order which we have total control over should carry the same status as a Direct Debit by Law

 

My opinion

 

 

 

FS