Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
    • Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP. When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose. Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court. Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.
    • Thank-you FTMDave for your feedback. May I take this opportunity to say that after reading numerous threads to which you are a contributor, I have great admiration for you. You really do go above and beyond in your efforts to help other people. The time you put in to help, in particular with witness statements is incredible. I am also impressed by the way in which you will defer to others with more experience should there be a particular point that you are not 100% clear on and return with answers or advice that you have sought. I wish I had the ability to help others as you do. There is another forum expert that I must also thank for his time and patience answering my questions and allowing me to come to a “penny drops” moment on one particular issue. I believe he has helped me immensely to understand and to strengthen my own case. I shall not mention who it is here at the moment just in case he would rather I didn't but I greatly appreciate the time he took working through that issue with me. I spent 20+ years of working in an industry that rules and regulations had to be strictly adhered to, indeed, exams had to be taken in order that one had to become qualified in those rules and regulations in order to carry out the duties of the post. In a way, such things as PoFA 2012 are rules and regulations that are not completely alien to me. It has been very enjoyable for me to learn these regulations and the law surrounding them. I wish I had found this forum years ago. I admit that perhaps I had been too keen to express my opinions given that I am still in the learning process. After a suitable period in this industry I became Qualified to teach the rules and regulations and I always said to those I taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If opinions, theories and observations are put forward, discussion can take place and as long as the result is that the student is able to clearly see where they went wrong and got to that moment where the penny drops then that is a valuable learning experience. No matter how experienced one is, there is always something to learn and if I did not know the answer to a question, I would say, I don't know the answer to that question but I will go and find out what the answer is. In any posts I have made, I have stated, “unless I am wrong” or “as far as I can see” awaiting a response telling me what I got wrong, if it was wrong. If I am wrong I am only too happy to admit it and take it as a valuable learning experience. I take the point that perhaps I should not post on other peoples threads and I shall refrain from doing so going forward. 🤐 As alluded to, circumstances can change, FTMDave made the following point that it had been boasted that no Caggers, over two years, who had sent a PPC the wrong registration snotty letter, had even been taken to court, let alone lost a court hearing .... but now they have. I too used the word "seemed" because it is true, we haven't had all the details. After perusing this forum I believe certain advice changed here after the Beavis case, I could be wrong but that is what I seem to remember reading. Could it be that after winning the above case in question, a claimant could refer back to this case and claim that a defendant had not made use of the appeal process, therefore allowing the claimant to win? Again, in this instance only, I do not know what is to be gained by not making an appeal or concealing the identity of the driver, especially if it is later admitted that the defendant was the driver and was the one to input the incorrect VRN in error. So far no one has educated me as to the reason why. But, of course, when making an appeal, it should be worded carefully so that an error in the appeal process cannot be referred back to. I thought long and hard about whether or not to post here but I wanted to bring up this point for discussion. Yes, I admit I have limited knowledge, but does that mean I should have kept silent? After I posted that I moved away from this forum slightly to find other avenues to increase my knowledge. I bought a law book and am now following certain lawyers on Youtube in the hope of arming myself with enough ammunition to use in my own case. In one video titled “7 Reasons You Will LOSE Your Court Case (and how to avoid them)” by Black Belt Barrister I believe he makes my point by saying the following, and I quote: “If you ignore the complaint in the first instance and it does eventually end up in court then it's going to look bad that you didn't co-operate in the first place. The court is not going to look kindly on you simply ignoring the company and not, let's say, availing yourself of any kind of appeal opportunities, particularly if we are talking about parking charge notices and things like that.” This point makes me think that, it is not such a bizarre judgement in the end. Only in the case of having proof of payment and inputting an incorrect VRN .... could it be worthwhile making a carefully worded appeal in the first instance? .... If the appeal fails, depending on the reason, surely this could only help if it went to court? As always, any feedback gratefully received.
    • To which official body does one make a formal complaint about a LPA fixed charge receiver? Does one make a complaint first to the company employing the appointed individuals?    Or can one complain immediately to an official body, such as nara?    I've tried researching but there doesn't seem a very clear route on how to legally hold them to account for wrongful behaviour.  It seems frustratingly complicated because they are considered to be officers of the court and held in high esteem - and the borrower is deemed liable for their actions.  Yet what does the borrower do when disclosure shows clear evidence of wrong-doing? Does anyone have any pointers please?
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

VCS Ltd v HMRC: Application pending to the Court of Appeal !!!!


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4061 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

VCS Ltd v HMRC: Application pending to Court of Appeal

 

As many on here will know, HMRC found that Vehicle Control Service Ltd ( a company owned by Mr Simon Renshaw-Smith) were liable to pay VAT from 04/05 to 10/09 on parking charges collected from motorists.

VCS Ltd appealed this decision to the First Tier Tax Tribunal and attempted to argue that VAT was not payable as the charges were either “damages for breach of contract” or “damages for trespass"

 

The Tribunal found against them and ruled that VCS Ltd (and, by implication...all other private parking companies) had no authority to issue a charge in the first place as VCS Ltd had no occupational right to the land that they patrolled and consequently; could not enter into a contract with the driver.

 

They ruled that monies received from motorists by VCS Ltd were in fact “services to the landowner” with whom VCS Ltd had a contract to provide parking control services. It was made clear from the First Tier Tribunal that there was no contract between VCS Ltd and the motorist.

 

VCS Ltd appealed this decision to the Upper Tribunal (Tax & Chancery Chamber) where the case was considered on 6th March 2012 before Judge Roger Berner and Judge Nicholas Aleksander. They concluded that the First Tier Tribunal has been correct in that there was no contract between VCS Ltd and the motorist and as a consequence, VCS Ltd had no right to claim damages in trespass against motorists who parked in breach and accordingly, that the penalty charges did not constitute damages.

 

The Upper Tribunal dismissed the appeal.

 

Firstly it should be noted that the Upper Tribunal was established under Section 3 of the TCE Act 2007 as a Superior Court of record and accordingly, its decisions establish precedents which are bindings on lower courts.

 

Yesterday, a “little birdie” informed me that VCS Ltd have appealed the Upper Tribunals Order dated 2nd May and the matter is now listed at the Court of Appeal on 4th or 5th May 2013. Closer to the date one of these two dates will fall away.

 

The case has been listed with a time estimate of 4 hours.

Link to post
Share on other sites

VCS Ltd v HMRC: Application pending to Court of Appeal

 

Yesterday, a “little birdie” informed me that VCS Ltd have appealed the Upper Tribunals Order dated 2nd May and the matter is now listed at the Court of Appeal on 4th or 5th May 2013. Closer to the date one of these two dates will fall away. [/font][/color]

 

The case has been listed with a time estimate of 4 hours.

 

 

 

Does your little birdie have any info on why a seemingly very late appeal/application for permission to appeal was allowed through? Although the order of the Upper Tax Tribunal was made on 2 May 2012 VCS did not file their Appellant's Notice until 16 July 2012.

 

I did ask the Civil Appeals Office about this back in August but their Mr Tai, Case Progression Manager said only:-

 

"We understand the order made on 2nd May 2012 but not available until 18th June 2012. The appellant's notice was filed on 16th July 2012 therefore it was in time."

 

I did query how this could be the case when VCS clearly knew about the UTT's decision in May. It was being quoted at them and used against them as soon as it was published on t'internet (which I think was on or about 16 May 2012) - and the judgment itself says that it's release date was 2 May 2012.

 

Ultimately I was told that Deputy Master Bancroft-Rimmer said "This application was set down in time" . . . .but no explanation beyond Mr Tai's statement about the order not being available until 18 June 2012 was given.

 

And neither would the Civil Appeals Office provide a copy of the appellant's notice or the grounds of appeal.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My "little birdie" has given me info regarding this supposed "late appeal". Here goes:

 

Apparently, the "Upper Tier" Judgment is formally sent to all parties under cover of a letter. In this particular case, the letter was dated 18th June.

 

With allowance being given for "deemed service" the Court of Appeal records reflect that an appeal will be accepted witin 42 days of 29th June.

 

With regards to the Grounds of Appeal, such info is not given to the public and queries can be made either to HMRC or VCS' solicitors; Flint Bishop

 

I will be making more enquiries in the next few days and will post back....

Link to post
Share on other sites

I did ask HMRC but they said they couldn't supply copies of the grounds of appeal, etc without the consent of the taxpayer, VCS. Fair enough, I suppose.

 

VCS certainly weren't going to show it willingly. They were asked to do so when they referred to the application for PTA in a witness statement filed by their Ms Coates in another matter [where they were being sued for the return of monies extracted through clamping] - but, predictably, they refused to provide a copy.

 

The dodgy bunch of fekkwits even refuse to supply the other side with copies of the contracts they have with the landowner. They'll bring them along to court to show the judge but won't provide advance disclosure to the litigant on the other side.

 

If you have a look at the VCS v Ibbottson transcript you'll see Miss Coates says:-

"We manage the car park on behalf of Wickes, our client. I have got a copy of our agreement.

Obviously, it was not sent to Mr Ibbotson
." [at page 2, lines 24 and 25]

Obviously??

 

Well, obviously you wouldn't want to provide prior disclosure of a relevant document to someone you were suing, would you.

 

They are devious, greedy f*ckers. Obviously.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

That judgement refers to driver and not RK and also makes mention of towing which is not illegal.

 

 

It also clearly refers to damages that VCS can collect on behalf of the LL.

 

 

This raises the question whether the contract does state that PPC can collect damages on behalf of LL and allows the defendant to examine the contract as part of their defence.

 

 

Secondly the LL stil has to prove the extent of the damages suffered which would be negligible.

 

 

I don't think the judgement si detrimental to the motorist and may work in favour of the motorist as judgement specifically relates to damages!

Link to post
Share on other sites

VCS's clients ("clients") are owners or lawful occupiers of car

parks or land. VCS enters into a contract on standard terms and conditions with

each of the clients under which VCS agrees to provide the client with "parking

control services". There was some confusion about which contract was the

correct version. The FTT and the UT both considered a version that the parties

agreed was not the correct version. We have considered what we are assured is

the right one. No one objected to this course.

 

How could there be confusion about which contract was the correct one !!

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...