hi. not sure where to post this thread sorry if its in the wrong place.

i am a cabbie and work out of a local railway staion that used to be free.

over the last three years we have had to apply for a yearly permit from meteor parking to wait in the station for business at a cost of £185 a year.

are they entitled to do this as the land almost certainly belongs to BR

although they probably have to apply to BR.

as work is pretty rubbish at the moment and my permit is up for renewal this is another expense i and other cabbies could do without

.thanks in anticipation

a permit for taxi cabs!!!

not even black cabs have to pay anywhere while waiting

total spoof charge

all of you need to get together and stop this unlawful 'fee'

to work they are charging you.

they are making mugs of you all.

dx

In an ideal World, I guess the rail operator would come in for a lot of flack if their passengers all became stranded at the station, unable to get to the end of their journey.

The RO would then take up the matter with the Rail land owner (station operator?) who would look at the validity of Meteor's actions and ensure sence prevailed, either now or when the contract comes up for renewal.

As I said, "in an ideal World"......

... but hopefully the seeds are sewn.

there are 50+ at our company that have to get these permits to use the rank so there is a significant amount of money involved as far as meteor are concerned and thats not the only station where these permits are required locally.ive a good mind not to renew my permit and see what happens but i think the majority of drivers will need more convincing.if i get a tug for using the rank without a permit do i just ignore it like you would a pcn from a firm operating in a car park

we have got to renew our permits next week,so if anybody out there has any more information that could be useful i would be very grateful.apparently black cabs have to pay to work out of heathrow but im not sure of the circumstances.

Every black cabby I ever used to/from LHR justified the high official charge is because they have to spend so long in the queue.

But, just for the very reason of the high cost, I have not used one for quite a few years when entering UK!

Moving on to the present, several quick random thoughts to consider or explore -

A - What if you don't renew the permit? Is there some control that prohibits entry unless you display a Meteor permit?

B - You presumably have a Local Authority permit. What are it's conditions for where you can 'ply for hire' (or whatever the term is these days) within the Borough?

C - You mention 50+ coming up for renewal. Are these all of the cabs with permits - or do others also buy them?

D - Can any car line up where you do? And if they do, does Meteor send them 'Speculative Invoices' for not having a Taxi Permit? Or do they rely on your fellow Cabbys outrage to monitor that?

E - Do you 'need' a permit to drop passengers at the station as well as waiting for others wanting to leave the station?

F - Has anyone asked the Land Owner (through the station operator's Head Office, not the local manager) if charging taxis to provide the facility for their passengers onward travel is both permitted and intended?

G - Not my area of Law at all, but the phrase "restraint of trade" springs to mind. Anyone?

god one big [problem] here me thinks

put up a barrier and charge the cabbies to go thu it because where theywant to go

is on the otherside of our barrier

i wonder WHAT the FAA and the owner of heathrow have to say about this

a private PPC fleeing black cabs for a fee for a permit they DON'T need

simple

DONT go in

await the pleading letters from the owners that WANT you to pick up fares

fleeced blind. IMHO

dx

thanks for the replies.

there are no barriers to allow vehicles access to the station forecourt

only to the actual car park

so anybody can come in and out.

the 50+ permits up for renewal are for the drivers at the cab company that i work from,

because of the stations location drivers from other companies do not tend to work out of this station

but have the same problem at other stations within our councils licensing area.

other people drop off and pick up at the station.

the dropping off is not too much of a problem as this usually only takes only a few seconds.

the picking up at peak times can be a nightmare as joe public really dont care where they stop to wait for their loved ones.

they stop in disabled bays and really dont give a toss about stopping on the rank so we cant stop there after paying to do so.

nothing is done about this.

the icing on the cake is the independent bus companies that are subsidised by our council that come in as well

and i dont believe they have to have permits to wait for passengers to come off of the trains.

if you take all our drivers collectively as one company then our company is paying meteor £10000+

and i really cant see the two or three bus companies paying this amount of money to work out of the station.

then we have our noses rubbed in it.

every year we have to pay the council for our hackney carriage license which averages about £200 depending on the age of the vehicle.

in a nut shell we pay the council who indirectly use our money to subsidies bus companies to take our work while we pay for the privledge to sit and watch it happen.

another driver is trying to deal with the station operators etc and i havent yet looked at the councils terms about plying for hire.

but i think it must be abundantly clear that we are being taken for a very expensive ride

in a word

you're all being ripped off. IMHO

where DOES the LEGAL remit to HAVE these stupid permits come from?

dx

i think it must be abundantly clear that we are being taken for a very expensive ride

I hope the tenth word was a mistake. I would like it to have read "were".

Well its that time of year again,permit renewal time.after starting this thread last year I couldn't persuade any drivers to not pay for a permit and weather the storm.this year the cheeky b******s at meteor have put the fee up £220.maybe with the right advice other drivers might see the light.

a couple of things have changed this time which make me think that meteor are on dodgy ground.firstly they have given a contract number with the application and a load of t/cs which amount to a load of waffle which they have never done before.so it seems that they want us to make a contract with them which I assume will make it more legally binding.

they also mention that any cabs that do not have a valid permit will get a "parking" charge notice not penalty charge notice of £90.

the waffle bit says that network rail own the station and is leased to London and south eastern railways ltd who in turn has appointed meteor as its agent.im not sure if this bit is relevant or not.

so any help and advice in avoiding paying this rip off charge would be appreciated.

As stated this time LAST year, you are all being taken for a RIDE.

So what if you get a Parking charge notice, I have never seen one issued for waiting and they would never win a claim on that basis. You really need to escalate this to your Cab firm owner.

Permits for Taxis and Private Hire Cars at Transport Hubs is not uncommon these days,

to provide few examples Edinburgh Waverly, Edinburgh Airport and Glasgow Airport have had this system for a number of years.

It would appear in this case however that the station operators have leased the car parking with a designated area for taxis to rank.

This is a roundabout way of obtaining revenue from the businness generated within the premises.

I would look further into this as Stations and Airports are governed by their own byelaws.

The reason I urge caution is that I was heavily involved in taxi operations for many years and am familiar with this situation.

So lets suggest that you appose the current system , what is to stop the Station operators (Not the PPC) providing free ranking space

and charging £1.50 every time you pick up a fare.

I don't for one minute support this method of operation, nevertheless it has become a reality and should such a charge be introduced

your annual cost would increase, although it may be possible to surcharge the additional cost with the consent of your licensing authority.

Why not speak to the National Private Hire Association (Based in Manchester 0161 280 2800) who will be more updated that I am on this particular subject.

things have now moved on

.we now have a solicitor and our local m.p. on the case.

all of our permits run out in june and at the moment no further request for payment has been made.

meteor are losing about £900 a month so i would have thought that if they were legally entitled to this money they would have this matter sorted out by now.

they are now trying a new tactic.

yesterday and today they have had two bods moving taxis out of the car park saying a pcn would be issued on refusal.

everyone has stopped ranking up in the station and started using a rank in another road, which is a bit inconvenient.

i thought i would put it to the test and stayed in the station and am now the proud owner of a parking ticket.

the question is what do i do with it.

it states that:

i am in breach of contract(i have not agreed to any contract in writing or verbally)

im not abiding to the t's and c's as stated on the signage in the car park

(there are no signs)

can they issue tickets even though the matter is in dispute or is this an attempt at intimidation.

its not a ticket

its a SPECULATIVE INVOICE.

ignore or follow the ignore pop up advice

dx

im not abiding to the t's and c's as stated on the signage in the car park

(there are no signs)

 

Get some images of the car park and its entrances that show there are no signs.

Meteor are contracted by the railway co so have a go at them.

They tried a similar thing where I live with parking spaces and cab rank and I complained (just like complaining)

and railway said that motorists should obey but I pointed out that the road was a public highway

and railway co would be liable for massive damages if they with this folly.

Worth checking out where the public highway starts and stops and whether a right of way has been created by continuous use.

As you say though, no signage, no contract.

Make sure you have a DATED picture of the disputed area and any signs nearby.

They will continue to issue tickets because thay is what they do to earn a living.

I have now got a letter from PCN Debt Recovery and Prosecution Services saying the pcn has now gone up to £90

and if not paid within 14 days will increase further to£165

and following that a magistrates court summons under railway byelaws.

Apparently I have contravened RB 14 for not displaying a valid permit.

The ticket that was actually handed to me, as i hadn't left the vehicle, says that I was in breach of contract by not displaying a valid permit.

I don't know how I could be in breach of contract as I haven't agreed to a contract either verbally or written.

It also mentions t's & c's but because the area in question is the station forecourt and not the car park

there are no signs displaying them so they cant say I agreed to these either.

There are no signs relating to RB14,

the only sign says that motorist failing to comply are liable to prosecution under byelaw 25.

It appears that PCN Debt Recovery are actually London and South Eastern Railways Ltd who lease the land from British Rail.

Im not sure what to do next or where I stand as I have noticed that some people are actually being taken to court for pcn's.

Should I just ignore the letter or appeal against the pcn.

Am I right in thinking that I have a good case as I never agreed to a contract in the first place.

Any help and advice would be appreciated.

Do you still have the PCN, and does it mention Byelaw 14 anywhere on it, we have seen these before where PPC's threaten byelaw 14 prosecutions but I can't recall one from the company themselves.

I have only ever seen real byelaw 14 tickets issued by Northern rail, these can get expensive if taken to court.

Have you contacted them at all?

Railway byelaws https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

I have the original pcn it doesnt mention RB14 at all.

it was issued by meteor parking who were working on behalf of london and s.e railways aka pcn debt recovery.

i havent actually contacted them yet as i need to know how to deal with the situation properly

You really need to research this one as if it does go to Magistrates it could become expensive.

If you google "Debt Recovery and Prosecution Services" you can see quite a few of these issues but none have reported actually receiving a summons to court.

I have done a bit more digging and think that there are two areas that can be exploited

1.the fact that only the driver can be taken to court.

yes I was the driver but they would have to prove it.

I wouldn't deny I was the driver but neither would I admit it.

Short of putting me in an I.D parade they couldn't prove I was driving

2.the offence is for failing to display a valid permit.

there is some justification for thinking that you can only be prosecuted for not paying.

not displaying is different and not enforcible.

Any ideas anyone.

The agreement between Meteor and the railway is the decider in who has the authority to pursue a claim and under what circumstances. from what you describe meteor will lose this one for more than 1 reason but will just change tack next time, they dont want to lose all that free money in a hurry, they might have to EARN their living next time.

getting a copy of the contract will be impossible as they will protect their interest by claiming commercial confidentiality but persisting in asking the railway what it is that you have supposedly done wrong may yield something. The general one will be trespassing on railway property contrary to byelaw 7 or 14 but that would need to offer proof that Meteor have the explicit authority to act on behalf of the railway co. They may well have that authority but do they have the authority to charge for a permit rather than issue one?

As i see it Meteor are only issuing the pcn and permits on behalf of London & South Eastern.the letter telling me to pay up or else is from PCN Debt Recovery ltd who are actually london and south eastern in disguise so it would seem that L & S E are actually pursuing the claim.looking at other threads i suppose we are at the point,have they got the permission to do this from their landlords british rail or rail track whichever it is.again they wont readily disclose the information.i must say that i feel a bit easier in as much that you think i could win this but i would like to know why so i can gather as much info on the relevant points before i put in my appeal.

PCN debt recovery is owned by Go-Ahead, so presumably they own your railway franchise.