Blair Oliver and Scott/Bank of Scotland ** Compensation awarded by FOS **

[steven4064]

G They'll eventually get the message

What will we do on slow Wednesday afternoons if they do?

[babybear39]

What will we do on slow Wednesday afternoons if they do?

 

I dunno. Just finished my first year of uni and I'm bored silly :-|

[reallymadwoman]

Daughter has gone to 'Download' festival and won't be back until Monday, OH is due home (after 4 weeks away) tomorrow but house is already spotless, large quantities of food and wine already purchased, all correspondence up to date, been to the post box, visited local county court, and now have absolutely nothing to do until it's time to go to the station tomorrow afternoon. After that I might be busy though!

[babybear39]

I am going to London on the 15th to the 21st though And I'm not telling what for

[steven4064]

What for?

[babybear39]

I'm not telling

[steven4064]

Awwwwwww, go on

[babybear39]

No

[The GodMother]

RMW can u please come and clean my house.

[babybear39]

Mine too please as I'm busy getting ready for my trip

[reallymadwoman]

No chance - I'm busy for a few days!

[The GodMother]

No comment..............baby still not here tho

[Dorabell]

No comment..............baby still not here tho

 

 

Hi chriss no twinges yet:lol: how are you hope you have not been up them ladders again and playing the bin men up:lol: let me now best of luck x

[The GodMother]

bin men have given in as i threten to go to the COE of council with my camplaint and further complaint about them not collection.

 

Ladders ermmmmmmmmmm ermmmmmmmmmmmm No comment.

 

teinges is a maybe but it is hard to tell threw the pain she cases when she moves.

[pelham9]

There seems to be some incorrect advice going on here.

 

The interest rate charged is not a prescibed term for a fixed sum loan.

 

Schedule 1 of the 1983 regulations says that the interest rate should be shown but as it is not a prescribed term its abscence will probably be accepted by a judge - the omission does not make the agreement automatically unenforceable.

 

In some types of loans the APR must also be shown but again this is not a prescribed term. The APR does not have to be shown in any agreement if the interest rate to be charged is shown and the APR is not less than .1% and not more than 1% above that rate.

 

If the APR is shown it must be accurate to one decimal place. The tolerances in the previous paragraph do not apply to actual value of the APR but to whether or not it can be omitted if another interest rate is shown.

 

The APR will only be affected by PPI if the PPI is compulsory as then it will be part of the cost of the loan and the APR must then reflect this added cost of borrowing. Most commonly the PPI is not compulsory and is added to the loan in which case it must be taken into account when calculating the APR on the increased amount. My experience is that the APR will be accurate to one decimal place but the banks always charge an actual rate that is above the APR by as much as possible without changing the APR. For example they may and will charge 17.94% - and will correctly show an APR of 17.9%.

 

Where the interest rate charged is a prescibed term the APR is not a substitute . After all 17.9% does not equal 17.94% and quite often any compulsory charges will mean that the APR does not express in any way the underlying rate to be charged.

 

We should all get out of the habit of thinking that the APR is the interest rate to be charged - it never is. Well hardly ever!

[Sol]

I read this whole thread with interest and only took me two hours lol. I honestly can't believe that this joke of a company have been able to get away with this for so long, but hopefully they'll get hit back hard!

 

I used to work for the 100 operator service a few years ago and Wescot used to call us all the time asking to be put through to people's numbers and then pretending to be someone else when the person answered, so I've no doubt all the debt companies do the same to trace neighbours and family members etc.

[steven4064]

Pelham

 

Item of schedule 6 of the Consumer Credit (Agreement) regulations 1983 say that "A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement" is a prescribed term for "(b) fixed-sum credit falling within the exceptions in paragraph 9(a) to © of Schedule 1 to these Regulations"

 

The exceptes in para 9 of schedule 1 are loans:

 

(a) which do not specify either the intervals between repayments or the amounts of repayments or both the intervals and the amounts

(b) under which the total amount payable by the debtor to discharge his indebtedness in respect of the amount of credit provided may vary .....

© which provide for a variation of, or permit the creditor to vary, ...the amount or rate of any item included in the total charge for credit after the relevant date.

 

For most fixed sum loans the rate of interest is a prescribed term.

 

THe APR must be quoted with an accuracy of one decimal place if it is below the 'true' value but can be 1% out if it is above. (See Part IV (1) (a) of OFT144)

[nicklea]

Hi Steven,

 

I really do hate to say this but, I'm not too sure about that.

 

To take (a) first, all loan agreements that I've seen do state the number of payments, intervals and amount. Usually something along the lines of "60 monthly payments of £xx". So they do specify the things required by (a)

 

With (b) This applies to loans with a variable interest rate which is linked to some other rate eg a so-called Tracker loan (though usually seen with mortgages that track the base rate). Most loans are fixed rate.

 

© again applies to variable rate loans or loans where anything in the charge for credit can be altered after the date of the agreement. This would need looking at the t&cs very closely to see if anything could be altered

 

Regards

 

nicklea

[kel123]

It doesn't matter is it's a precribed term or not. If it is quoted it needs to be correct' wasn't that the ruling?

[reallymadwoman]

Some time ago I asked the FOS for copies of correspondence between themselves and BOS relating to this complaint, in case it would be of future use - like in court. They refused as they say it's not 'personal data' under the DPA. I queried this with the Information Commissioner, and I've finally had a reply.

 

The ICO are saying it is personal data under the DPA as I can be identified from it but the FOS probably have a 'use limitation' on the data which means it can only be used in connection with resolving a dispute. The only way to find out for sure is to make a formal request under the DPA and wait for their response, then pass it to the ICO for investigation, which is likely to take forever. As things have gone really quiet, I'm not going to bother at the moment as the FOS have already agreed to keep the data in case it's needed in future.

[reallymadwoman]

I'm a bit annoyed with BOS as they've now sold a disputed account to Cabot, see this thread if you really need to know the details :- http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/151228-oh-no-cabot-after.html

 

On the basis that I was pretty bored anyway this afternoon, mostly cos just about all I'm allowed to do is sit at the computer or watch TV, I decided to do another nice letter to them.

 

 

XXXXX

 

 

XXXX

 

 

XXX

 

 

 

11th July, 2008

 

 

Bank of Scotland

Customer Relations

PO Box 29112

Dunfermline

KY11 2ZX

 

My reference (please quote)XXX (had to give them all references cos otherwise I don't know which account they're on about - they never use them though)

 

Complaint

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Re: Account number XXXXXXX

 

I have recently received correspondence in respect of the above account from Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd (hereinafter Cabot) purporting to be acting on behalf of Bank of Scotland. I would point out that this is the sixth such agency from whom I have received correspondence.

 

I regret that I feel obliged to make the following complaints:

 

1. Breaches of the Office of Fair Trading Guidance on Debt Collection Practices

 

The following sections are taken from the Office of Fair Trading Guidance on debt collection practices (the OFT Guidance), all of which have been breached by Bank of Scotland and/or their agents (hereinafter BOS)

 

From Section 1 – Introduction

 

BOS have failed to comply with the requirements of credit or other consumer legislation, see ‘Consumer Credit Act, 1974’ below.

 

BOS have engaged in business practices appearing to be deceitful, oppressive or otherwise unfair or improper (whether unlawful or not), see breaches of guidance detailed below.

 

From Section 2 – Unfair Business Practices

 

2.1 Communicating in an unclear, inaccurate or misleading manner, e.g.

 

leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors' lack of knowledge

 

Under S77-79 of the CCA 1974, whilst a creditor is in default of a request they may not take enforcement action, i.e. they are not legally entitled to ask for payment. I therefore contend that the correspondence from Cabot is intended to mislead me into believing that

(a) they are entitled to take enforcement action through the Courts

(b) they are entitled to demand payment

Further, no default notice has ever been issued in relation to this account, and therefore legal action is precluded in any event.

I hold BOS liable on the grounds that they failed to pass on a full and accurate account history.

 

failing to provide debtors or creditors with information on status of debts, for example, not providing requested balance statements when reasonably requested

 

A full and accurate statement of account, requested on XXXX, remains outstanding.

 

ignoring or disregarding debtors' legitimate wishes in respect of when and where to contact them, for example, shift workers who ask not to be telephoned during certain times of the day

 

Under reference XXXX, the Ombudsman has previously ruled that, because of my disability, continual requests to telephone whilst ignoring written communications is unfair. I therefore contend that the correspondence from Cabot is unfair because the response demanded is a telephone call. I hold BOS liable for failing to pass on a full and accurate account history.

 

not ensuring that an adequate history of the debt is passed on as appropriate resulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different parties

 

The information passed to Cabot clearly did not include any history whatsoever. BOS have been aware of my above mentioned disability for some time, and I can conceive of no reasonable excuse for not passing on at least that information. Furthermore, BOS have neglected to inform Cabot of the outstanding disputes regarding the account, and have passed on an incorrect balance.

 

not informing the debtor when their case has been passed on to a different debt collector

 

BOS have once again, despite a previous complaint against them on exactly the same grounds being upheld by the Ombudsman Service, failed to inform me that the account was being passed on.

 

ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

The account has been in dispute since XXXX.

 

not passing on payments received within a reasonable time resulting in delays that adversely affect a debtor's financial position.

 

Not all payments made to BOS between XXXX and XXXX of 200X have been credited to the account. These payments were made strictly in accordance with instructions issued by BOS in a letter dated XX XXXX, 200X, and I find it extremely worrying that some payments made under the same standing order instructions have been credited whilst others have not.

 

failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued

 

See above two paragraphs

 

2. Breaches of the Consumer Credit Act, 1974, s77-79

 

Following a request, accompanied by the required fee, made under the above sections BOS have

a) Failed to supply a legible copy of the executed agreement

b) Failed to supply a copy of any other document referred to in it

c) Failed to supply an accurate statement of account

The request was made on XXX, 200X, the letter being signed for at your offices by XXXX XXXXon XXXX. In accordance with the prescribed time limits the above mentioned documents should have been received 12 working days after this date, i.e. by XXXX, and an offence was committed on XXXX.

Further, the Act also states, in s77-79 (4) (a) that where a creditor has failed to comply with a request, he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement. I would therefore contend that all correspondence received since the above date in which payment is requested and/or legal action is threatened is in breach of this section of the Act.

 

3. Breaches of the Data Protection Act 1998

 

Despite the dispute, BOS have continued to record inaccurate data with the credit reference agencies and have also passed inaccurate data to a third party, Cabot. This is in breach of Principle 4 of Schedule 1 of the Act

‘personal data shall be accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date’

Specifically the account balance quoted is inaccurate in that it makes no allowance for payments made but not credited between XXXXXX, 2007, and also includes unlawful charges. Further, BOS have yet to supply any evidence that this debt is owed by me.

 

4. Breaches of the Disability Discrimination Acts 1995 and 2005

 

Failing to make ‘a reasonable adjustment’ in relation to the provision of a service.

 

I have a disability as defined in the Disability Discrimination Acts, which BOS are, or should be, fully aware of. The Acts require businesses to make ‘reasonable adjustments’ when providing services, and I contend that BOS’s failure to make the entirely reasonable adjustment of accepting that all communication with me must be in writing, and communicating that requirement to Cabot, is in breach of the Acts.

 

5. Breaches of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997

 

Pursuing a course of conduct which amounts to harassment and which the company ought to know amounts to harassment, including causing alarm or distress.

 

The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 defines the offence of harassment as:-

‘A person must not pursue a course of conduct –

(a) which amounts to harassment of another, and

(b) which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.

The Act goes on to give the following interpretations:-

‘References to harassing a person include alarming the person or causing the person distress.

A “course of conduct” must involve conduct on at least two occasions.’

 

In view of the previously upheld complaint, I contend that BOS knew or ought to have known that their conduct in passing the account to another agency without a full and accurate history would amount to harassment as defined in the Act, and that it was likely to cause distress. My health is such that even a small amount of stress has an extremely negative effect, and indeed the previous harassment by this firm resulted in hospitalization, which they should also be aware of. I further contend that the two letters issued by Cabot on XXXX and XXXX are sufficient to amount to a “course of conduct”.

 

What I now require

 

As a result of previous experience, I have no expectation whatsoever of receiving a response to this letter and have entered a reminder in my diary for 5th September (8 weeks) to pass the complaint on to the Financial Ombudsman Service. Furthermore, I am no longer willing to spend an extra 70p on postage simply to deny BOS the opportunity of stating this letter was not received, so feel free to do so when the Ombudsman contacts you. BOS may now wish to consider however that it will be the third time such an excuse has been offered to the FOS in connection with my complaints about BOS, and you can be certain that I will draw their attention to this fact.

 

Alternatively, in the admittedly unlikely event that it is considered in the best interests of BOS to reply, please do not bother unless you are prepared to give a full and considered response to each and every complaint, with no allegations of ‘letters not received’ or ‘isolated errors’. Given my previous experiences, I will simply not believe such excuses. In the hope that I do receive a response, the actions that I wish BOS to take to put matters right are :-

 

1. A full and sincere apology for any and all breaches made by themselves or their agents

2. Payment of compensation for the inconvenience and distress caused, plus time spent in drafting and sending letters, stationary and postage, of £250. If BOS are able to supply all of 3 to11 below, and 14 does not apply, I will accept deduction of this amount from the outstanding balance, otherwise the sum must be paid by cheque to me.

3. Incontrovertible proof, in the form of legible copies of any and all agreements relating to this account, bearing my signature, that this debt is owed by me.

4. A full and detailed statement of account showing the date and nature of each and every transaction under the account

5. Where such a transaction is the provision of funds, details of how such funds were provided. If paid to an account, full details of the account, and if paid by cheque, full details of the account to which it was presented.

6. Where the transaction is payment for goods or services via a debit or credit card, proof that the transaction was properly authorised with my signature or that of any other person authorised by me to do so, or alternatively that a correct PIN number was entered

7. Where the transaction is a payment by cheque, a copy of the cancelled cheque

8. Where the transaction is a charge of any other nature (including interest), proof that such charges were properly made in accordance with the terms of any agreement and, in the case of late payment fees and the like, that each such charge represented the true cost to Bank of Scotland and/or their agents of any breach of contract which is alleged to have occurred

9. Confirmation of to which address any cards (including replacement cards), PIN numbers or cheque books were sent

10. Proof that statements were regularly sent in accordance with the terms of any agreement, and details of the address to which they were sent

11. If it is alleged that a default notice has been sent, proof of the date and contents of such notice, and confirmation of the address to which it was sent

12. If any of 3 to 11 above is not able to be supplied, confirmation that your files will be closed and any and all entries on my credit reference file relating to this account be removed.

13. If any of 3 to 11 above is not able to be supplied, confirmation that Cabot will be instructed to take no further action, and that no alternative agency will be instructed in their place

14. If any documents supplied lead either party to believe that any unlawful or illegal action has occurred, both parties give an undertaking to cooperate fully in any police investigation

15. If BOS are able to supply all of 3 to 11 above, they will accept that I have no disposable income, no assets, and my situation will never improve, as previously confirmed to BOS by no less than two outside agencies. Should this be the case I would be willing to reinstate the token payments being made previously (£1 per month) on the following conditions:-

a) Neither BOS nor anyone acting on their behalf will contact me for any reason, with the exception of a written request for an update on my circumstances once a year on the anniversary of this agreement

b) Token payments will continue to be accepted so long as my circumstances do not change

c) If after three years (if I am still alive) my circumstances have not changed, the balance of the account will be written off and I will receive written confirmation that no further sum is due

d) Should BOS or anyone acting on their behalf breach any term of this agreement, BOS will immediately pay £50 in respect of each letter received by me, £100 in respect of each demand for a telephone call, £100 for each request for an increased payment (unless justified by a change in my circumstances) and £250 for failure to write off the balance as agreed and/or failure to provide written confirmation of same, such payments to be made by cheque to me

16. If in the alternative, BOS make the entirely sensible commercial decision to write off the balance of this account now, they will provide written confirmation as in c) above

 

Should you be tempted to impose any charge for supplying the above information, I would point out that the statutory fee in respect of the request under s77-79 of the CCA 1974 has been paid, and indeed credited to the account, and the £10 statutory fee in respect of a request under the Data Protection Act, 1998 was acknowledged by BOS on XXXX. None of the above mentioned documents were supplied previously, so should they now come to light, I will be making a complaint to the Information Commissioner and/or seeking compensation through the courts.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

XXXXX

 

I enjoyed that, and I would dearly love to be a fly on the wall next to the poor sod who gets to open it. What's the betting it goes straight in the bin.

 

And no it's not an error assuming Cabot are acting as agents, I know they've bought it and BOS can't get it back, but it makes for a far more interesting complaint.

 

**** Please read post 441 before using this letter ****

Edited July 13, 2008 by reallymadwoman

[fuzzybobble]

Now that's one of the best complaint letters I have ever seen on here.

 

Can I use the bottom bits of it, so I can charge Moorcroft £50 every time they send me a threat-o-gram?

[reallymadwoman]

Use whatever bits you need with my blessing. I have to give credit to OH for coming up with that particular bit though.

[palomino]

I enjoyed that, and I would dearly love to be a fly on the wall next to the poor sod who gets to open it. What's the betting it goes straight in the bin.

 

 

It will probably be shredded.

The process is that all mail is opened by the mail dept. At this point everything will be scanned. Then all the paper will be put aside for a short time before being sent for disposal. Oh, original documents (eg birth certificates) are obviously not destroyed).

 

Once scanned the documents will indexed by account number and then sent for the appropriate action - application forms to be processed, changes of address to be actioned - that sort of thing. At the end is a residue of things which don't 'fit' anywhere such as your letter. These are sent to a team of specialists (or is that generalists?) who try to process these appropriately. Occasionally things need to be passed up the chain and that is probably where your letter will end up.

So, somebody should look at it eventually. Perhaps they do - and then say it was never received. But somewhere lurking in their system the scanned image will remain. Can you find it? Yes, if you know how and have access to their computer systems : in other words about as likely as Lord Lucan flying past on the back of a pig.

[reallymadwoman]

Just about what I thought, palomino, but I genuinely don't care if they reply or not. Any reply is extremely unlikely to address any of my complaints, and of course complying with my 'requests' is impossible, if only because the account has now been sold and is beyond their control. I have absolutely no doubt that this complaint will also eventually end up with the FOS, no doubt costing BOS far more than whatever paltry sum they got from Cabot.

One stray thought - do you think it might be possible to be banned from complaining to the FOS, like being banned from taking court action as a vexatious litigant?