SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[noomill060]

Such cynicsm in one so young....

[tamadus]

hey who you calling young

 

Cynical ? me? perish that thought:lol:

[blackrain]

So am I right in thinking that an consumer credit agreement has to be signed by both parties? Ie if for instance I was sent a copy of my application form and the other party hadn't signed the box where they were supposed to then the whole agreement isn't binding?

[Mike220359]

"You may even make matters worse as once the agreement is cancelled then the whole sum becomes immediately repayable!"

 

Unless of course the sum the lender claims contains a proportion of unlawful charges and intrest levied on those charges. In which case the lender has a headache.

 

And any interst added whilst they are in default as under a section 85 default

 

MIke

[un1boy]

And any interst added whilst they are in default as under a section 85 default

 

MIke

 

Hi Mike,

 

How do you how much interest was added - do you mean interest added to your account by the bank?

[Number6]

So am I right in thinking that an consumer credit agreement has to be signed by both parties? Ie if for instance I was sent a copy of my application form and the other party hadn't signed the box where they were supposed to then the whole agreement isn't binding?

 

A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

 

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

 

©the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

Pete

[Number6]

And any interst added whilst they are in default as under a section 85 default

 

MIke

 

S85 of the CCA 1974?

 

Pete

[pugsley]

if it does become immediately payble at court you can still be means tested and pay it off very slowly

[un1boy]

if it does become immediately payble at court you can still be means tested and pay it off very slowly

 

So is it only at court that the full balance becomes immediately payable?

[Number6]

So is it only at court that the full balance becomes immediately payable?

 

Careful again here. If the agreement is cancelled then the debt becomes immediately repayable - there is no longer any agreement that allows you to have the money.

 

For a repayment schedule to be set by the court you must have already had a CCJ granted against you.

 

You need to be negotiating a repayment schedule directly with the lender before it gets to court.

 

Pete

[Kidson]

A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

 

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

 

©the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

Pete

You may wish to take a look at this interchange on the same subject:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/42056-hsbc-cca-request-help.html

[pugsley]

it seems we have different advice on different threads, isn't her reply the same as I got regarding cancellation notices being pre contract only?

[pugsley]

well today I got a letter from Littlewoods

 

 

with ref to your letter 3rd october

under dections 77 and 78 of the CCA 1974 we are required to provide a copy of the executred agreement (if any). On the assumption that you have signed the agreement supplied to you at the time of opening the account. We enclose a copy of our agreement, which complies with the requirements of the consumer credit ( cancellation Notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983.

 

 

 

Help with a reply would be great, obvioulsy I now have proof they do not have the agreement, what they have sent me only has my name and address typed in and no date!

 

 

is this similar/same to the other thread?

[Number6]

You may wish to take a look at this interchange on the same subject:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/42056-hsbc-cca-request-help.html

 

I've posted a reply on the above thread.

 

Pete

[ppauls150]

Number 6 from what i have gathered you are right in what you are saying. There is mixed advice going around from zootscoot I thought that was cleared up regarding the issues surrounding the Regulation 3 Consumer Credit (cancellation Notices & Copies of Documents) Regs 1983 in that this part of the regulation does not affect your rights under the CCA 1974 section 77/78? We can all produce a document to show people owe us money even though they havent signed it but that does not make it true does it.

[ppauls150]

4) The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 clearly states that any copy document supplied under any section of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (including sections 77 and 78 ) do not have to include signature boxes or signatures.

Pete

 

Ok just found this on the other thread you mentioned canx the last part This does make a mockery though of anyone producing an unsigned document claiming you owe them money and being able to enforce it in a court of law even unsigned. What an easy way to fraud people out of money just make up a load of credit agreements Surely what a stupid loophole which people can rip people off if they wanted to.

[Number6]

Ok just found this on the other thread you mentioned canx the last part This does make a mockery though of anyone producing an unsigned document claiming you owe them money and being able to enforce it in a court of law even unsigned. What an easy way to fraud people out of money just make up a load of credit agreements Surely what a stupid loophole which people can rip people off if they wanted to.

 

Whilst the 1983 regs allow an unsigned copy of the agreement to be produced a lender would not be able to enforce anything in court without producing the original signed agreement.

 

Seems a bit silly to me that they don't have to produce a copy of the original signed agreement but there we are.

 

Pete

[Mike220359]

Hi Mike,

 

How do you how much interest was added - do you mean interest added to your account by the bank?

 

Yep interest added by the bank whilst they are in default, plus intrest upon THAT interest at the 'contracted rate', adds up to a pretty penny. The reason you add interest upon the added interest is because, unless you are lucky enough to pay off your card every month your running total would be compromised by the addition.

 

I know some of you may say that a contract doesn't exist whilst they are in default, well it doesn't stop them adding it onto the account until they are stopped by the courts or the law.

 

Mike

[Mike220359]

S85 of the CCA 1974?

 

Pete

 

Spot on

 

Mike

[un1boy]

Yep interest added by the bank whilst they are in default, plus intrest upon THAT interest at the 'contracted rate', adds up to a pretty penny. The reason you add interest upon the added interest is because, unless you are lucky enough to pay off your card every month your running total would be compromised by the addition.

 

I know some of you may say that a contract doesn't exist whilst they are in default, well it doesn't stop them adding it onto the account until they are stopped by the courts or the law.

 

Mike

 

BankFodder keeps mentioning that we should be claimign contractural interest, but it looks too complicated and I have now, unfortunately finsihed all but one of my claims, so can't go back and claim it now, can I?

 

I don't really understand the whole concept of contractural interest to be honest....

[Peterbard]

HI Been away for a bit harrassing the local MP.

 

It seems that there is for the moment anyway going to be a problem getting a signed orriginal copy of an agreement from a creditor however, if you look at the request it says may appy therefore they have a choice. I have recently sent off a request with the addition of

"I understand that under section 3 (b) of SI 1983 /1557 you may ommit the signature box from the copy , I would point out that not having the orriginal copy with which to compare an unsigned copy it would to be impossible to verify the vlidity of such a document as an exact copy.

I therefore would suggest that a true copy including my signature be sent. If I am unable to verify the authentisity of the document the terms of 1974 section 77 act have not been met and the timescale for production of the documentation would still apply"

We will see what happens.

Glad we seem to got to the bottom of how many signatures are required sec 60 (1) says 2 section 127 part 3 indicates 1 the debtor.

Bit of a moot point really because since it would be the creditor that was apply ing for the enforcement order he would hardly forget to sign the agreement.

[blackrain]

I have been sent copy of a CCA from a creditor and they haven't signed or dated it. So where does that leave the agreement?

[Number6]

I have been sent copy of a CCA from a creditor and they haven't signed or dated it. So where does that leave the agreement?

 

In a nutshell:

 

If it's a copy of the original agreement then it's not a properly executed agreement within the meaning of the CCA 1974.

 

You could tell the lender this and that they cannot now enforce the agreement.

 

The lender might do several things:

 

1. Agree that the agreement is not valid and ask for the full sum to be repaid immediately

 

2. Apply to the court to enforce the agreement on the basis that you did sign a document (the one you've just received)

 

3. Agree that the agreement is not valid and write off the loan.

 

4. Same as 1 but take you to court to get a CCJ against you stating that you owe £x

 

Pete

[un1boy]

In a nutshell:

 

If it's a copy of the original agreement then it's not a properly executed agreement within the meaning of the CCA 1974.

 

You could tell the lender this and that they cannot now enforce the agreement.

 

The lender might do several things:

 

1. Agree that the agreement is not valid and ask for the full sum to be repaid immediately

 

2. Apply to the court to enforce the agreement on the basis that you did sign a document (the one you've just received)

 

3. Agree that the agreement is not valid and write off the loan.

 

4. Same as 1 but take you to court to get a CCJ against you stating that you owe £x

 

Pete

 

If they do this though, can't you counter claim for them to repay all interest etc paid while the agreement was "in force"?

[un1boy]

If they do this though, can't you counter claim for them to repay all interest etc paid whilt on that agreemtn?

 

And also for the fact they have commited a criminal offence under the CCA?