Help! I need urgent advice. Dismissed from work...

[PinkGlitterGirl]

I know that this isnt the right place for this kind of thing, but I need some advice, and with it being a saturday ACAS/CAB are closed, and I know so many knowledgeable people are on here... here goes...

 

Ok, here is the background. My partner has been friends with a lad in work who he knew from when they went to school (he is 24, this lad is 22). They were part of a group of friends within work, and they mixed outside of work. My partner and this lad always played jokes on each other, for example they had a summer ball through work last year, and this lad put a cigarette end on my partners burger, and watched him eat it.

 

Well, my partner thought it would be funny (idiot) to set up a myspace page for this lad. He put a pic of him on a nightout on there, and his first name, and town. He put in the bit where it asks about sexuality 'bi-sexual'. He then sent the link to their group of friends.

 

He has been dismissed because this lad made a complaint to work, despite it being something done outside of work. His work have said he breached the equal opportunities policy. (He was also accused of breaching data protection, unprofessional conduct and causing offence). Basically, they did a grievance investigation against him, and i wrote dp a grievance to hand in against this lad. He was trying to make out this was some kind of one sided harrassment. Which it wasnt. He called my partner gay, taunted him about his hair style (gay apparantly) his earing (gay again) and that our son wasn't his.

 

So my partner handed his own grievance in at the disciplinary meeting. They said they would suspend the investigation to look at his grievance, and that they would meet again on the 6th June.

 

Then on Thursday, he got called in to the office to be told his grievance was being thrown out. On asking why, he was told the 2 members of staff who were to give statements to back up his version of events had refused. He knew this wasnt right, so asked to see the minutes of the meetings. The minutes were waved in front of him, but he wasnt allowed to see them. One of the people asked to give a statement was my partner's best friend. When this man found out what had happened, he went to the manager, and complained. He had not refused to give a statement, and no minutes had actually been taken in the meeting, they had been written afterwards, and certainly were not signed by him. The minutes were full of things he had not said.

 

So now my partner's grievance is going ahead. But then yesterday, they brought forward his disciplinary, and told him he had been dismissed for gross misconduct in breaching the equal opportunities policy.

 

This is coming from the man who has been called gay for years. He has suffered so much abuse at the hands of other people, yet he just took it in his stride as banter, and got on with things. But the minute he retaliates he gets dismissed! Im so angry, really, I am. Its almost ****ing ironic that after 10 years of taunts, he gets sacked for it!!!!!!

 

Anyway, basically, we need advice. Where to go, what to do. First port of call monday is temp agencys, then to the Jobcentre, then to CAB, then to a solicitor. He is currently walking around town trying to get some bar work. He was a retail manager by the way. If that makes any difference. Both him and this lad were in the same job position, both floor managers.

 

He isnt going to be able to get another job is he? He has worked for them for 7 years, since leaving school, working his way up. He has never had another employer. So his only job, he has been dismissed from, and has no other form of reference. Can they state he has been dismissed on a reference? What the hell does he tell future employers? I just dont know what to do. I know he has been stupid. He knows he has been stupid. But this has gone way to far. It was something between friends that occured outside of work. They were both in the wrong, but does it equate to him loosing his job?

 

I just dont know what we are going to do. Im gutted, for him, and for us as a family. We can't survive on one income, not with the debts we incurred as the result of being a me being a student (ive just qualified as a midwife). We arent entitled to any benefits as I earn 'too much' (yeah, right!) Ive only just started a job myself, with there being no midwifery jobs, im doing something else... we were just getting on our feet aswell. We have a 5 year old son, so obviously we were young when we had him, and we've worked incredibly hard to get somewhere in life, and now this

 

What makes me even more angry is that recently his company were brought to a tribunal for failing to deal with a grievance... the woman involved still works for them, in the same store that dp does. Is that not unfair? Here is the link... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=440028&in_page_id=1770

What do you think? Will he ever get another job? Will he have to do s*** jobs for s*** money? Help. Sorry its so long. Im desperate here.

[jansus]

firstly I expect someone who can help you will come along soon.I would say the first thing you need asap is a copy of the employment contract which will list the grievance proceedure that the employer and employee must adhere to. secondly write a formal letter requesting an official copy of the minutes of the meeting.Also ask your partners friend and any other parties to provide you with written statements that might support your case - while they are fresh in your mind.send all requests for documents by recorded delivery -keep copies- do everything in writing.

 

I am not commenting on the rights or wrongs of any behaviour just think this is how you should start - and then get professional advice

 

jansus

[patdavies]

Was the Myspace page done via a work computer?

[PinkGlitterGirl]

Sorry, should have pointed out earlier - no. It was done on my computer. They dont have access to computers at work. Its a retail store.

[REDDRAGON]

First of all and I know this is easy for me to say but take a deep breath and I'll try and help.

 

Okay lets start from the beginning, whats been done re the my space thing is done okay it cannot be changed but lets look at how the employer has reacted to this.

 

Is your partner in a union if so seek advice from the full time officer as soon as you can . If he is in a union and does'nt know who his fto is let me know which union and I will try and help.

 

If he is not in a union then first thing Monday contact any solicitors in your local phone book dealing with employmant law. There are some that will give free first consult or reduced fee consult seek their advice.

 

You need to look at your partners employers policies and procedures get a copy and read through thoroughly if you cannot get them yourself if your partner has friends that still work there ask them to get you a copy.

what we are looking for is policies on disciplinary procedures, grievences, codes of conduct etc. Looking at the way your partners employers have conducted themselves there is no way that they have abided by any policies that I have known of.

 

As to the complaint and this is only my slant on this equal oppertunities policy breach no case to answer your partner did not breach this if anything it was discrimination on the grounds of sex or sexual orientation.

 

Data protection act no case to answer no breach of data okay your partner did put a picture of him which is unfortunate but not the end of the world and from what I can gather though not 100% to breach the data protection act you have to be a registered data controller and if your partner is not a registered controller then again no breach though if I am wrong on that then I'm sure someone will correct on here as to unprofessional conduct and causing offence he may well have a case to answer here though there may be a defence on this we will really have to look.

 

Look I know it is difficult to get all the info you need on here so if you wish e mail me with all of the info any documents he has had etc and I will try and help.

 

I am a union rep and affiliated to the tuc I am also a member of the tuc forum if you wish I will bring this to their attention and I am more than sure he will recieve advice on how to proceed with this.If you want me to do that as said e mail me and I will try and get the ball rolling. Take care.

[dx100uk]

ok, this looks very complicated as such.

 

two things though.

 

1. if the myspace site does not mention the employer at all

IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM

they CANNOT use it in any way shape or form

they are not the bastions of the internet.

 

2. equal opportunities policy...they can only use evidence from what has happened within their walls.

 

seems like there is more to this than meets the eye

 

what they have done is contructive dismissal under false/unadmissable evidence.

 

get a case for that moving with the industrial relation tribunal people.

 

this firm needs a slap on the wrist

 

outside of their employment remit if what above is true and the full story.

 

dx1oouk

[PinkGlitterGirl]

Hi Reddragon,

No, he isnt in a union, unfortunately. He will be accessing advice on monday, once he has been to the Jobcentre.

As far as I can see, looking through all the minutes (which are terrible, barely legiable, let alone understandable some of it!) and his handbook, and contract, I cant see any reason why he could argue against the dismissal, however their handling of it has been very questionable. Particually over his own grievance. They suspended him following the grievance from the other man. This was on Tuesday. He then went in to his disciplinary hearing on Thursday, where he handed his own grievance in. He was then taken off his suspension, and told he would have to take 1.5 days holiday, and to return Saturday when he could formally give his grievance. When he attended on the Saturday, the manager who was doing it shouted at him for not coming in in uniform. When he questioned why, she told him he should never have been given holidays, and that he should have resumed work once his own grievance had been handed in that day, unless he was suspended. So he was forced to take holiday, when really he should have still been on suspension with pay.

Then there was the way the grievence was handled, in the minutes of his meeting, on reading it you can tell that they didnt believe a word of what he was saying, it was hardly sympathetic when he was telling them that this man had accused him of having a sexual relationship with another male colleague, called him gay, called his hair 'gay', his son wasnt his, and that he was fat, his teeth were ugly, and that he smelled!

They then told him that the witnesses to the abuse that he had given had refused to give statements. They actually fabricated the minutes, did not write them in the presence of the witnesses, and did not get them signed. The content was not accurate either. If it wasnt for my partner asking one of the witnesses, he would never have known, and his grievance would not have been going ahead. Cheeky b.......!

I am particularly hoping tha this other case in that the woman is still working in his store may go in his favour. Im hoping that when the appeal goes to the Area Manager, he may have a different slant on things.

Thanks again for the advice.

[PinkGlitterGirl]

DX, it definately occured outside of work. I think they are going along the lines that because junior members of staff were allowed access to this page, that it affected his authority as a manager. I can see the point they have, but I do not believe it warrented dismissal for an otherwise unblemished character, who has had under 3 weeks sick leave in the 7 years he has been there. He really is a good employee, and they dont have any problems from him. This manager only started with them 3 weeks ago, the old manager has been seconded for a year to another store.

It wouldnt suprise anyone to say this is a major retailer. How they think they can get away with it is beyond me. They are not treating things on a like for like basis, dismissing those who they feel like, where as others get away with the same offence.

Oh, and no, the page does not mention the employer at all, its a picture, his first name, and then a load of made up details, like income, sexuality, smoke, drink, want kids... you know how it works I guess.

 

RedDragon, I forgot to add to my last post, I would be very grateful if you could repost this for any further advice you could get.

[dx100uk]

DX, it definately occured outside of work. I think they are going along the lines that because junior members of staff were allowed access to this page, that it affected his authority as a manager.

 

nothing at all to do with them, they have not right to judge this against his employment sutability.

 

wrongful dismissal. go get 'em.

 

dx100uk

[Trojan1401]

Hi, Just thought I'd add my own views on this and to clear a point.

 

I know it sounds trivial however, was the photo which was put on MySpace one taken at the official summer ball mentioned above ? Not clear from your post. If it was, then there may be some recourse by the company but certainly not as severe as this.

If not then it has absolutely nothing to do with the employer - especially where there is no mention of them at all.

 

I'm afraid that they do appear to be hiding behing the "Harrasment" act and are IMO definately wrong.

 

I suggest he writes / e-mails to Head office HR providing full details inc. names of the management etc who have dismissed him insisting on reinstatement and the opportunity to provide full version of events etc. He should also state that you aree seeking professional advice with regard to starting an appeal through an Industrial tribunal.

 

Having just read the link to the Daily Mail,doubt that the retailer would want any further adverse publicity.

 

Might also be worth pinging an e-mail to the author of the report.

 

The above is my personal view only so I do strongly recommend you seek profesional advice.

 

Good luck on this though.

[PinkGlitterGirl]

Trojan - no, just checked with my partner. It was taken on a night out, other members of staff were there, but it was not an organised night by the company. It was just at a local nightclub.

Thanks for the good advice

[ScarletPimpernel]

I cannot see a data protection issue here at all. If a photograph was used, and information posted that was untrue and caused some sort of harm, then there might be a case of defamation - but I suspect the chances of such a case being successful are remote.

 

The difficulty with the harassment issue is that it is how the 'victim' percieves things that matters - if he says he is offended then there is no defence in saying that it was just a joke.

 

In any disciplinary case, the 'accused' employee has several rights, and whilst employers often ride roughshod over them, they can be made to come back and bite them on the arrse.

 

Check to ensure that the employer has complied with the Statutory Disciplinary Procedure:

 

1. The employer must provide the employee with a written statement

setting out the reasons why they are considering dismissing or disciplining the employee, (i.e. what they consider he has done wrong).

2. The employer must invite the employee to a meeting to discuss the issue. The employee has the right to be accompanied to the meeting.

3. Before the meeting, the employee must have reasonable time to consider his response to the allegations. No dismissal or discip action can take place before the meeting.

4. At the meeting, the employer can give his decision, but he must tell the employee that he has a right to appeal.

 

There is also a modified dismissal procedure which employers can use in certain cases - for example, where the manager actually witnessed an employee assaulting someone else. I doubt that it would apply in the case at hand.

 

If the above procedures have not been complied with, OP's OH may well have a case for unfair dismissal. ACAS are the best people to advise.

[jampot]

There was a case reported recently of 2 guys receiving a police fine for pulling a very similar stunt with a friend's details on a dating website, but they went as far as to advertise his personal phone number, which resulted in him receiving telephone calls...

 

So, it may be a *police* issue, and if the company sees that he is prosecuted or charged with an offence, this MAY constitute "Gross Misconduct" - but that's far far away from where you are at the moment.

 

Link here: BBC NEWS | England | Hereford/Worcs | Duo fined for dating website joke

 

It does sound like there hasn't been much attempt to follow proper process. I can't see why, having suspended him, they suddenly expected him back to work, just because he put in a counter-grievance - that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Should be easy pickings for an employee-law savvy solicitor.

[dx100uk]

I can't see why, having suspended him, they suddenly expected him back to work, just because he put in a counter-grievance - that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Should be easy pickings for an employee-law savvy solicitor.

 

nail on the head there!

suddenly realised they couldn't pull that stunt to get rid of him.

urm..sorry our mistake...just forget it ever happened.

thats what that was all about

then it went bad, didn't work and they backtracked.

 

go get 'em.

 

dx100uk:cool:

[PinkGlitterGirl]

Hello!

Just an update. He had an appointment with an employment solicitor through CAB this morning.

Originally CAB (nor ACAS) did not seem very positive about the situation, but arranged for this appointment.

The solicitor said he has a case for appeal, and for unfair dismissal, mainly through their own mistake.

He wrote the following letter, which is the appeal... any advice?

 

Dear Mr *****,

Appeal

Please accept this letter as notice of my intention to appeal the decision to terminate my employment with *** Retail LTD. I have sought legal advice in relation to this matter by an Employment Solicitor.

The grounds of my appeal are as followed:

* The decision to dismiss me is too severe considering all of the circumstances.

* This is inconsistent with other cases which have occurred with in *** Retail LTD. An Employment Tribunal is set to award Miss ****** ****** the sum of £120,000 for discrimination yet ****** *****, the alleged bully is still employed by ****.

Therefore I have been treated differently and less favourable than ****** *****, and I believe this is because I am male.

*On a without prejudice basis, the sanction imposed ( i.e. the dismissal ) should not have been given but perhaps a final written warning should have been given instead, taking into account that I have an unblemished record.

*The events which I was dismissed for took place outside of work. What is your legal authority that states that incidents that take place outside of work can be brought into work, and action taken in the form of disciplinary.

I look forward to hearing from you within 2 weeks, as stated in my Staff Handbook (section 2, page 38).

Yours Faithfully,

 

 

**** *****

 

The solicitor advised that should the appeal be unsuccessful, that he would have a case for unfair dismissal. He advised him not to include it in his original letter, incase they tried to backtrack, but basically although they verbally advised him that a formal grievance was taking place, they did not put it in writing, and did not put in writing that this could lead to dismissal. Im not sure about this one... He said they should have put it in writing and sent it out to him. Is that right?

 

Luckily, he has a new job. Unfortunately its not to start until August. In the meanwhile, we will be 3 months of wages down, to the tune of £3500 (including loss of bonus). We are in severe financial hardship, and because he has had to find new employment (without being able to afford to be picky, lets face it, not many employers would want to take on someone who had just been dismissed) he has had to book his driving test, and buy a car, due to the location of the new employment. Where as his old employment was within walking distance. He has also had to take a job for less wages. (12k as opposed to 17-18k that he was on) Im hoping that if they do reinstate him, that he will be entitled to the £3500 loss of wages, otherwise between the 2 of us we will have had 6 months without pay this year! (I had 3 months without pay as I finished being a student and had to find work, so there was a 3 month gap between my last bursery payment and my first wage!) Between us we have lost over £7000 in wages this year. And we are in that 'middle income' bracket that entitles us to nothing, but means we dont have enough to get by!

 

We have had to take another bloody loan out. And Im fuming about it!!

 

 

Sorry to go on, as you can see, it has really affected us! Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Jenny

[laineynic]

Hi Pink Glitter Girl

 

I have read your posting with igreat interest.Its such a Shame their wasn't websites like this 21 years ago when I lost my job. Two colleagues I worked with did there upmost to get me out because I was promoted on merit and thy go there jobs because their face's fitted.

 

All the very best of luck. I hope it goes well.

[dx100uk]

nice to hear you have atleast moved this fwd.

i would put the line about legal authority (your last * point) as the first of the * points.

 

personally i would sue them, when you win, for loss of earnings & the cost of the loan and anything else you can think of. [car etc etc]

 

still say this is nothing at all to do with them, they have no authority whatsoever upon what 'might' have gone on outside of work env.

 

good luck

keep us posted.

 

dx100uk

[bathgatebuyer]

And keep your pecker up! I know it sounds flippant but having had employment difficulties myself recently, I know how easy it is to become despondent and downhearted. I lost one of my former jobs because I was bullied and dared to challenge the person responsible. I appealed the College's decision and I didn't have create a stink in the whole grievance process in there!!! I made sure everyone of her bosses knew the type of horrid old boot she was.

 

She is no longer a manager in there after having been demoted. Laugh? I almost died with laughter.

[powelll]

Just subscribing to wish you luck

[nick-morrey-007]

hi i have seen this happen before. from what i have read i cant see any reason for him to be dismissed.

 

i am glad to see that you have gone to a solicitor. i have been working in retail for some years and i know no the disiplinary like the back of my hand (as had to give not recieve). from what i can make out was the person who made the complaint the one giving the disiplinary?

 

as an ampoyeee there is a reight to appeal and that is to be held by an independant panel who know nothing of the case. usually this will be refered to H R to deal with, was this done?

 

when he had this diciplinary did he recieve any paperwork from the empoyer during any of this?

 

who was in the original disiplanary and why were they in there? who made the minites and who conducted it.

 

magor retail companys have a set disiplinary procedure, which are very simaler to each other. the employer has NO RIGHT at all to give disipinarys for incidents that happen outside of work.

 

you need to fight this company as much as possible, the company needs to be put in to plaice as they cannot treat thir employes in this manner.

 

word of warning though. solicitors can get very expensive, and the company will keep puting up baricades and delaying for as long as possible. you need to be very carfull in the way that your solicitor gets paid as these proccedings can get very very expencive.

 

all very well you WILL win the case eventually but by the time it is won you may have exuasted all your money in to your solicitors.

 

hope things well for you and that you can squeze every penny out of them. they need to learn that theycant get away with this sort of behavior.

 

also you should try and get the people who conducted the disiplinary, an investigation in to why they were put in charge of a disiplinary and why they didn't carry out there dutys properly. it will not affect you but they might decide to try and pull the same trick on sombody else who wont stick up for themselves, so please challenge, as much as possible. you owe it to yourselves and to everyother employe in that company.

 

btw it sounds like the same company that used to work for and if it is i feel sorry for you....lol

 

thanks for reading, nick.

[PinkGlitterGirl]

Just a quick update, and plee for any information!

My partner just got news today that the man who placed the grievance against him, only got a final written warning. He committed the same offence (by different means) by calling my partner gay, he breached the equal opps policy too. My partner placed a griecance against him, to show that this was not all one sided, and had 2 written statements from colleagues backing his version of events. Yet, my partner got dismissed.... how is that fair?

 

My partner said this man already has a final written warning for something different. Apparantly he can get final written warnings in different category's. How can that be right? A final written warning should be just that?

[dx100uk]

well again it depends on the co policy

or more like how far up the local managers...

 

sorry drifting.

 

but yes i do know of differing types of final warnings that can run concurrently for differing types of offences.

 

 

 

 

is there something more behind this than what we know [or are being told] ?

 

because it really puzzles me that your oh has been dismissed for something that happened outside of work, with obvious evidence to match, ... if this ever went to a tribunal, the co, would loose without doubt.

 

i think it about time you got someone to take up your case seriously.

no win no fee types spring to mind.

 

dx100uk

[PinkGlitterGirl]

No, there is absolutely nothing that I have not included in my posts!

 

The CAB advisor said that he would reccomend that we go to a solicitor, and that we have a very strong case for unfair dismissal as they did not follow procedure. However he said we would struggle to find a no win no fee solicitor to help us.

We are going to wait and see what happens with his appeal. They should have recieved it yesterday, so we will possibly hear something at the end of this week, or at the very latest the end of next week. (they have 2 weeks according to their own handbook).

[PinkGlitterGirl]

I forgot to add, that ACAS have said that even though it occured outside of work, if they feel it will have a negative impact in work, they have a right to take discaplinary action.

[Guest weegirl]

Just a quick update, and plee for any information!

My partner said this man already has a final written warning for something different. Apparantly he can get final written warnings in different category's. How can that be right? A final written warning should be just that?

 

This is legal, if you get a series of warnings, they have to be for the same type of offence. You cannot give someone a verbal for being late, and then a written for refusing to carry out a reasonable working request for example.

 

May not sound fair, but it is the law (which isn't always about fairness...)