Guidelines - Requests For An Original Agreement Under The Consumer Credit Act 1974

[ducatis]

I have been reading the site all afternoon, i need help on the following issue

 

In Jan 09 i recieved a letter claiming i owed a debt of £3,713.39!

 

I telephoned the company CCSCOLLECT, Thornton Heath, Surrey to ask what it was all about. The lady i spoke with was, i thought, helpful and said she could not tell me any thing about the debt because they had no detailed records. I knew nothing about this sort of thing at the time but did say to her surely out of common sense there must be a agreement somewhere in relation to it, which she agreed with and said there will be a signature. She did say she would go back to them, I got the impression I may not hear anything more.

 

I recieved another letter today asking for payment in full by 10am on 6th Apr 2009. I phoned them back initially spoke to some one who was rude and unhelpful, complained to me she had spent enough time on the phone, and would now have to write up the conversation, she said she could not help any more and hung up. She could only tell me it was something to do with Clydesdale/Yorkshire Bank, i said i had a bank account with the Yorkshire in the mid 1990's.

 

I rang back and got the name of the next person who then told me they had been instructed by a company called 'Merit' who had bought the debt and instructed them in January '09. She asked to put me on hold, after 10 more minutes i hung up and rang back again! Once again I took the name of the person I spoke with. I told her i need to track this down, i do not believe i have a debt, and do not think it is unreasonable to ask for evidence of it. I genuinely believe this collection company have limited records of it. She could not supply me with a tel number for Merit only a PO box address which i took. I said to her as far as i am concerned i'm not going to pay this debt until it is proven. I asked if it meant bailiffs would be calling, she said this could not happen without me being written to first. I asked her to instruct her client that i will not be paying, and i will go to court if necessary for the evidence. She said she would do this and said they may or may not follow it up and that they may even instruct a different firm.

 

I would be be the first to admit in the latter 1990's i had a number of issues, financial, divorce etc. I moved on from these and genuinely believe i do not owe any debts. I carried on living that part of the UK for a few years, moved to Finland for a yr in 2000/2001, and then moved to Greater London and have been here ever since. I since taken TWO mortgages , have a number of well run credit cards (some clear), THREE personal loans - two of which have been paid off the other has 1 yr left out of a 4 yr term. All this through respected high street banks (~can you say this in 2009!!!).

 

This all seems mad to me,

 

Should i send the letter 'lexis200' posted in this thread number #824 - 13th Feb 2009, about formerly asking for the agreement?

 

Can I be pursued after all this time?, if there was a debt most of that amount could be costs

 

I cannot trace any fraudalent loans taken out and do not know if a CCJ exists somewhere or how i would go about finding out - clearly i cant write to every court in the country.

 

I would really appreciate some advice. I will donate to the group, you guys clearly do some great work

 

ducatis

[charlie*]

I have sound reason to believe that the bank does not have the original signed agreement....... it was sold.

 

Consider this..... there is a trade amongst banks, some institutions and some of the wealthy elite. This trade is based upon buying and selling debt notes - often these 'financial instruments are referred to as 'prime bank guarantees' (don't waste your time asking at your bank, even the regional directors don't know about them) and they usually come in bundles valued at $100 million upwards... there are various kinds - the ones I know about are one year contracts giving a guaranteed yield - they involve The Fed and some major european banks - I believe they are often used for Third World loans - Letters of Credit, Educational Trust and doubtless others.

 

They are so profitable that such that people as Brown, Bush, Blair and the rest will vehemently deny their existence. We, the proles (their slaves) are allowed to make on our money only that which government approves of and controls - no doubt as also directed by their masters. If not, they get jealous and worried and try to shut down all the off-shore facilities (like now).

 

Here is a factual example - just to give you an idea.... the sub-prime mortgage business in America (and it went on here too - I could name and shame the odd bank or three back in the 80'd & 90's) was targeted at people who could not and by and large could never afford such mortgages even at the lowest deposit and income factors acceptable to normal UK banks. Like, low cost starters, 0% interest - )% deposits, unrealistic income multipliers and so-on.

 

These sales people or brokers and those who provided the funds (the banks that manipulate global politics and commerce) knew that the majority of these mortgages would fail in due course, thus, they parcelled them up damned quickly and unloaded them onto unsuspecting investors around the world as 'a fantastic investment opportunity'.

 

Well, of course, by the time the initial honeymoon of low start mortgage and high multipliers ran out and interest rates started to climb way beyond the ability to pay for so many poor suckers, the bundles of contracts had gone and those who bundled them collected truly huge sums of money... leaving the investors high and dry - promissory notes of very little value - because the mortgages were failing as people wlaked away from their dream homes.

 

That's my take on it.

 

Now, above, I mentioned Promissory Note, for that is what your loan agreement is and it has a sale value in this market, just the same as any other, like the sub-prime mortgage contracts... what is the attraction??? YOUR PROMISE TO PAY - and you pay by going to work every day and it is that that the banks capitalise on. (add to this deliberate planned inflation and to keep pace, wives and mothers had to start taking jobs too).

 

Q.E.D (quadrat et demonstrandum) they cannot show an origional contract because they do not have them any more. The key to this is to place them in a position where a) they have to produce the original contract to prove their claim against you or b) to validate a contract that was in law (not statute) invalid and void the second it was signed... THAT IS THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER.

 

Thus, what they refer to as "your contract with us" is based upon fraud... and why? because if everyone knew the truth, what they do not tell you, the gutters would flow with blood - the blood of the bankers (Andrew Jackson, President of the USA said words to this effect after the Civil War).

 

I somehow cannot help but think that the Consumer Credit Act of 1974 is some kind of ploy to steer the masses away from the actual law... and as I have said above, in law, the agreement is fraudulent and would not stand before an honest, interested, knowledgeable judge.

 

That's how I see it not that I know what we can do about it.

 

charlie*

 

Wtach your blood pressure with this!!!

Edited April 3, 2009 by charlie*

[Mr_Homer_J_Simpson]

I'd just like to say thanks to all people that have given great info on this site.

 

I've just read through ALL 44 pages of this thread and am shattered but happy with what I have read.

 

I will soon be starting my own thread (once I've written off and received CCA responses).

 

I've got about £64k of debt across 15 or so credit cards / loans and they were all taken out between 1998 and 2003.

 

I was about to use a company to do this for me, I had sent them all the paperwork, but two weeks later and they still had not started any action so I cancelled under their 14 day cooling off period.

 

I basically thought stuff them, I'll do it myself. Now armed with all this info I intend to do just that.

 

Thanks again and I look forward to your input in the future.

[jet83]

Hi Mr Homer J Simpson I just wanted to say good luck with your cca requests. From all what I've read on this site you should hopefully stand a good chance of success;). I'm currently disputing 4 credit card accounts 3 of which have sent me unenforceable ''agreements'' and one who still hasn't sent anything with only 2 of the 12 working days left to reply, although its far from over yet:(

[Mr_Homer_J_Simpson]

Thanks, hope all goes well with your disputes.

 

Once I've got some action started, I'll update my signature with the ongoing summary.

[Guest mosisoi]

Hi all.

 

The CCA 1974 DOES apply to overdrafts (Schedule 2 of CCA 1974).

 

InKogneeToh & Gizmo. I can send you pdfs of all the legislation if this helps. I don't seem to have enough time at the moment to go through it all.

 

Let me know

Could you pdf me the CC(CNCD) Regs?

Regards

[Guest mosisoi]

Yes you can send a request off to the DCA it is down to them to request the information from the creditor.

 

After 12 days they are in default after a further 30 days they have commited a criminal offence and they need to be reported to OFT and Trading Standards and untill such time that the CCA has been produced it is totally unenforcable without a court order. But remember if a creditor produces it months / years down the line it does then become enforcable.

 

Unfortunately even though they would have committed an offence you personally cannot enforce it, it has to be done by OFT or TS. Personally i think that is madness, if you know that they have broken the law then you should be able to report it to the police, but apprently it does'nt work like that!

 

Tip my scales if this is of any help.

 

Any information given is from personal experience, if you are unsure you should seek legal advice.

It is my understanding that failure within 12 d leaves the creditor in default - failure CC(PPGI) to comply - and after 40 days an offence (but not a criminal offence) is committed.

[car2403]

It is my understanding that failure within 12 d leaves the creditor in default - failure CC(PPGI) to comply - and after 40 days an offence (but not a criminal offence) is committed.

 

The section b offences were repealed by the CPUT Regulations 2008

[JonCris]

Of course it was car Can't have Browns mates getting into serious boffer can we;) now they have even less reason to comply with a CCA

[shabz25]

Gizmo you mention that if a CCA request has not been fulfilled then you should report it to the forementioned agencies, can you tell me if i were to report that my request hadn;t been met to the finincial ombudman would the ombudman agree that the debt could not be enforced and thus prevent the banks from demanding payment or tranfering the debt to a DCA. I kkep hearing conflicting information and to be honest i am not one step further with my situation. My request for a CCA is 4 months overdue, some of the banks still demand payment despite the breach. Am i to wait and see what will happen. I have heard that some judges have no regard for the law and have enforced action against people despite there being no CCA. What is going on and who is right or wrong and how can a judge have no regard for the law.

[car2403]

Of course it was car Can't have Browns mates getting into serious boffer can we;) now they have even less reason to comply with a CCA

 

Indeed.

 

Although it was a bit of a fallacy anyway - I don't know anyone on here the was successful in challenge this "offence", seemingly because Trading Standards were having none of it.

 

I think the repeal is an administrative action to reduce the headache that sites like CAG were giving TS by pointing out they were failing in their duties to punters.

 

Gizmo you mention that if a CCA request has not been fulfilled then you should report it to the forementioned agencies, can you tell me if i were to report that my request hadn;t been met to the finincial ombudman would the ombudman agree that the debt could not be enforced and thus prevent the banks from demanding payment or tranfering the debt to a DCA. I kkep hearing conflicting information and to be honest i am not one step further with my situation. My request for a CCA is 4 months overdue, some of the banks still demand payment despite the breach. Am i to wait and see what will happen. I have heard that some judges have no regard for the law and have enforced action against people despite there being no CCA. What is going on and who is right or wrong and how can a judge have no regard for the law.

 

Bearing in mind that the FOS is made up of "experienced Bankers" who used to work for these organistations, plus they won't have anything to do with declaring debts as unenforceable, ("that decision can only be made by a Court", apparently! ) I can't see the point in wasting your time with the FOS.

[blondie46]

Whay happens if you apply for a CCA, and the company only sends you a photocopy of your signature, address, date etc, and refuses to send anything more? Then they close your account and still harass you via phone calls?

Please dont say 'report them to ......' Been there done that and it hasn't done a bit of good

[hsbcfiddled]

Whay happens if you apply for a CCA, and the company only sends you a photocopy of your signature, address, date etc, and refuses to send anything more? Then they close your account and still harass you via phone calls?

Please dont say 'report them to ......' Been there done that and it hasn't done a bit of good

 

 

If it happened to me I would take it that they do not have the document.

 

Tell them that your not paying another penny and that if they take you to court bring along the original document with them.

 

Dont take the phone calls- Dont go through the security check.

[homespun]

if they dont comply with your request for the terms an conditions as layed in in the cca then they dont have a leg to stand on.

they must send you the origanal document and not a copy.

hope this helps.

there is lots of info on here ,take the time to go through it and you will find what you are looking for

 

good

luck

alan

[waterminx]

So far all I have received is from Barclaycard - they sent a photo copy of the terms and conditions for one of my cards. In their anal and pishy letter that accompanied it they said that, as far as they were concerned, they had complied with the requirements of the law.

 

For me it just confirms my suspicions that they have no document with my signature on it.

 

The BIG thing is that, since they have received my CCA requests ALL my creditors have stopped calling! Gulp.

 

I MISS THEM!! I have no one to talk to now! We were getting on SO WELL too!!!!

 

Joking aside - I cant help thinking of the gun fights of the wild west - "its quiet, Joe, almost... too ... quiet .... BANG .... yugh"!

 

From my perspective I am just looking for a bit of a bargaining tool. I think the lack of a legal document on their side qualifies as that. I just dont know at the moment what my next step should be once the deadline is up.

 

Meantime I assume they will be pretty well overwhelmed by these requests at the moment. And - institutions being what they are - I also assume they will be busy looking for a legal way around this problemo.

 

This is site is BRILLIANT - and helps me sleep nights.

 

thanks guys

waterminx

[blondie46]

if they dont comply with your request for the terms an conditions as layed in in the cca then they dont have a leg to stand on.

they must send you the origanal document and not a copy.

hope this helps.

there is lots of info on here ,take the time to go through it and you will find what you are looking for

 

good

luck

alan

They are being absolute ***** ! I have told them over and over I am in dispute but they carry on phoning anyway, in about 7 weeks I have had nearly 90 calls from them. I have answered 2! They say they'll keep ringing till I pay them £10 a month, yet they have closed my account and are still adding late payment/over the limit fees and interest!!! Dunno what to do next. I have applied for a DRO and that is currently being processed, but in the meantime the calls go on ......

[hsbcfiddled]

They are being absolute ***** ! I have told them over and over I am in dispute but they carry on phoning anyway, in about 7 weeks I have had nearly 90 calls from them. I have answered 2! They say they'll keep ringing till I pay them £10 a month, yet they have closed my account and are still adding late payment/over the limit fees and interest!!! Dunno what to do next. I have applied for a DRO and that is currently being processed, but in the meantime the calls go on ......

 

Who are they?

[blondie46]

Monument Credit card

[JonCris]

They are being absolute ***** ! I have told them over and over I am in dispute but they carry on phoning anyway, in about 7 weeks I have had nearly 90 calls from them. I have answered 2! They say they'll keep ringing till I pay them £10 a month, yet they have closed my account and are still adding late payment/over the limit fees and interest!!! Dunno what to do next. I have applied for a DRO and that is currently being processed, but in the meantime the calls go on ......

 

Download FREE Skype & Pamela recording & tell them your recording them AFTERWARDS pees them off big time & they usually stop. If they claim your not allowed to record them tell them as your a party to the call you are so tough

 

Also you'll need a cheap mic costing about £10 or less from PCW

[N.P]

if they dont comply with your request for the terms an conditions as layed in in the cca then they dont have a leg to stand on.

they must send you the origanal document and not a copy.

hope this helps.

there is lots of info on here ,take the time to go through it and you will find what you are looking for

 

good

luck

alan

 

 

Errrrm, I hardly think they are going to send you the original agreement. You could then quite easily set it alight, or wipe your gluteus maximus on it

 

The CCA states a `True Copy`.

 

In saying that, they are many arguements as to what exactly `true copy` actually means.

 

 

 

N.P

[N.P]

Download FREE Skype & Pamela recording & tell them your recording them AFTERWARDS pees them off big time & they usually stop. If they claim your not allowed to record them tell them as your a party to the call you are so tough

 

Also you'll need a cheap mic costing about £10 or less from PCW

 

 

 

The only problem is that your PC/laptop won`t always be on and and at hand when they ring.

 

This solution would only be practicle, if your either online with Skype running, when they ring, or, if you plan on ringing them and have the recorder fired up and ready to go.

 

 

 

N.P

Edited May 1, 2009 by N.P
Missed a blummin` word out

[blondie46]

The only problem is that your PC/laptop won`t always be and and at hand when they ring.

 

This solution would only be practicle, if your either online with Skype running, when they ring, or, if you plan on ringing them and have the recorder fired up and ready to go.

 

 

 

N.P

 

 

I dont even talk to them, never mind ring them!!!!!!

[justdoit]

If you have requested your agreement with S77 or S.78 and they have failed to produce it but still try to enforce it and chasing you for payments, they are harrasing you and you could obtain an injunction against them

[lexis200]

I'd advise against jumping in feet first just because a CCA request hasn't been complied with. Although it certainly points towards a lack of an agreement, it's by no means cut and dried, so always worth making sure by backing up your original request.

 

Obviously you've written saying you're not happy with what they've sent, so personally I'd at least SAR them now, including a specific request for any and all signed original contracts and documents relating to them.

 

With the phone calls, have you sent the harassment letter, and then sent it again when they ignored the first one? (which from my own personal experience they all like to do - honestly, it's like talking to my 6 year old; he only does things after being asked several times:rolleyes:)

 

Please think carefully before stopping payments after only a CCA request - I've had more than one not complied with by only sending terms, only to find when I've SAR'd them that they do actually have a signed document. Not an enforceable one mind, but at least I then know far more certainly that I have more leverage.

 

Lexis:)

[blondie46]

I'm in the process of apply for a DRO, which, I have been told is likely to be granted due to my circumstances and income. I just hate the thought of having to pay these so and so's if I dont have to., especially when they keep hassling me. I dont understand why they ask me to bring my account up to date though, when they have closed it .....