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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

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      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

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Bailiffs Forcing Entry and Using Restraint - Please Read, Important - Deadline


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Wow, after bothering to read where this was left off I see the intelect of several members of this forum didn't increase. References to beastiality etc whilst maybebeing very witty and hilarious for 12 year olds have no real place on what is meant to be an adult forum for adult topics. It is no suprise that you have had hard times with debts, as if you treat the money owed and your creditors with such contempt it is hardly surprising that you have had problems. Your ability to reason (which rapidly broke down) also seems to be wanting and this may have also lead to problems. Maybe a short evening class reading philosophy may help.

 

As to my debtor, no they weren't a landlord - keep guessing if you wish but I won't be discussing it in public here as I will probably be branded as evil for trying to regain at least part of what is owed. Oh and just for the curious yes bailiffs were instructed - but it isn't always as easy as that.

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Please stick to the topic of this thread. If there continues to be personal abuse I will consider closing it. Everyone has a right to an opinion, however long they have been using this site, and may contribute to any thread they wish, as long as it is on topic and within the forum rules. They should also be able to voice it without fear of personal insult from any users on this site. It is fine to discuss and debate, but please make sure that it is withing the rules of the site. For information, they may be found in the link below.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forum-rules-please-read/9-forum-rules-please-read.html

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Have done it already! Have heard nothing back as yet. I have said what you said and have offered support if I can give it. Will have to wait and see, he knows who he is if he is reading this!

 

EDIT

 

I did say in an earlier post that I thought that Blacksheep was a very odd name to choose! I still think he's a debt collector!:rolleyes:

 

Apologies, there was no intention to offend, although I am actually not sure of what I typed that was insulting.:(

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I AM NOT SCARED ANYMORE!:rolleyes:

 

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Hi Tevion and Seylectric

 

Many thanks

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Please stick to the topic of this thread. If there continues to be personal abuse I will consider closing it. Everyone has a right to an opinion, however long they have been using this site, and may contribute to any thread they wish, as long as it is on topic and within the forum rules. They should also be able to voice it without fear of personal insult from any users on this site. It is fine to discuss and debate, but please make sure that it is withing the rules of the site. For information, they may be found in the link below.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forum-rules-please-read/9-forum-rules-please-read.html

 

 

 

any posting on here by members can be taken as offensive to any other member, whether it was intentional or not. what may upset one member may not upset another. sometimes its not what is written but how it is perceived. this site is about expressing ones oppinion and it would be foolish to expect everyone to either agree or disagree with it. however if we are to be restricted in what we say then whats the point in posting.

it would probably be more productive for us to go on ebay and auction off our belongings before the arrival of the bailiffs

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Fair enough but in this case the post to which caro was referring WAS deliberately offensive - I see the intelect of several members of this forum didn't increase - that's a direct attack. Allow that sort of thing and the whole forum will degenerate into a slanging match amongst members - I've seen it happen! A little more decorum is required I feel.

I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice! :)

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now that my little poem has been disallowed and removed, i would just like to say that it went ba ba. blacksheep not ba ba blacksheep1979.

so could the cagbot please put it back.

 

ba ba blacksheep is a well known nursary rhyme. i just changed the words abit. if blacksheep 1979 found it offensive in anyway, can i then suggest you remove all of his posting as they have been annoying other members from day dot.

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Posts that 'annoy' other members are not removed or moderated. Posts which are seen to be a direct attack at another member or which clearly use offensive personal remarks will be deleted or moderated.

 

Please do not insult our intelligence by suggesting that, for no apparent reason, you decided to make use of a rhyme with the title 'blacksheep' but that it was in no way intended to continue the general abusive nature of many posts in this thread against another member who just-so-happens to share the same name.

 

Simply holding a different viewpoint to many other users should not be a reason for any others to embark on something nearing bullying, which was evident on 15th.

 

If you feel that other posts on here have not been edited and they contain personal insults etc, please report them. It is quite possible that some might have been missed.

..

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Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

 

 

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Top of the morning to one and all!!

 

Not a bad thread all in all, heated, argumentitive, thought provoking i would say. Not a bad thing in my view, thats the whole idea of a discussion forum is it not.

 

My point in posting? Well the jist of this thread is about giving Bailiffs extended powers so as to be able to force their way into properties. As i read this thread i couldn't help but think of some of the places that i've been to over the last 18 years. Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, N.I., to name but a few. My point?

 

Historically bailiffs like to believe that they are the physically stronger more aggressive and more threatening character. Some may say a bully. Preying on the weaker. Now we plan on giving them power to break in and "restrain you". I can assure you that controlled aggression is something that very few people have and it cannot be taught. Your stereotypical bailiff will now be coming to your house "physched up" and ready for you if you put a foot wrong.

 

So what happens now that we have escalated the situation? Talking wont work because they (the Bailiffs) have used force, so to counteract their force, Joe Public feels the need to use force, the up shot in my eyes - People will die and or be seriously hurt. You may think that is excessive but let me take you back to some of the countries i've visited. The stonger characters forced themselves on weaker people and drove them from there homes. The weaker people fought back to the best of their ability. The press termed it "ethnic cleansing". I've seen first hand what "everyday" people are capable of doing when their homes, themselves, or their loved ones or their possessions are put at risk. I believe it will be a form of "social cleansing". You have it, we (the Bailiffs) dont believe you should have it, so we are going to take it by force.

 

I know that i am capable of standing and smiling at someone if they spit in my face. I know i can repell an attack/assault if someone feels that way inclined, but more worringly, i know that if someone was to attempt to force their way into MY home unarmed or armed, legaly or not, then in a calculated manner which i felt neccessary, i would stop them.

 

At the fear of singleing you out Blacksheep, i ask you to consider the real life day to day ramifications of these powers that you are condoning. In laymans terms, if i wanted to enter your home, aggressivly and with force, i could. For that particular scenario i am physically and mentally more superior than you. I assure you that you will not like it, so how are you going to stop me? You will have to use some sort of weapon. From a debt to a criminal record in a split second. How can these extra powers be of any use? I dont believe they can.

 

Long winded load of old bo**ocks? Probably, but i'll let each forum member make their own mind up on that. :-)

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Fair play - an actual intelligent responce, thank you.

 

I have the choice to pay my debt and stick within the realms of the original contract, if I fail to and fail to notify the original creditors then the debt may be passed to a dca (even if I contact them this may be the case). I have the option to negotiate with the dca, to offer a payment plan on what I believe I can afford again if I don't do this or if the DCA thinks I am taking the **** and can afford to pay more the matter goes to court. From my experiences the courts are very generous to the debtor on the amount they have to pay again if you fail to pay this then bailiffs can be instructed but the debtor has the option to reapply to the court to get the amount reduced.

 

Only if all of these 4 stages are not attempted (ok the first may not be optional) then the creditor could or should be allowed to apply to the court to have the individual assessed for any goods that they have that may be non essential and of value.

 

If a person has ignored all these stages and chances of addressing their debt then there is little other method to recoup the money that they owe and in which case they have brought the matter upon themselves.

 

Yes some people may not be able to pay, but this can usually be found out before the matter goes to court, at the court stage and failing that reapplying to the court to get the amount of payment reduced. Failing that then if there is nothing of value that is not essential for day to day life or work then this will be assessed and there will be no point in sending bailiffs to the property.

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Blacksheep, have you no compassion at all? What about all the people who will be caught up in this? You only have to read the bailiff threads on here to see how many people get visits from bailiffs when the debt isnt even theirs. They turn up at the parents house trying to force them to pay the debt of their kids who have long since left home. And they dont take no for an answer and tell these people all kinds of things like the fact that Mr. xxxx doesnt live there any more doesnt matter, you HAVE to pay or we are taking your stuff.

 

If bailiffs were a bit more respected, and didnt abuse the powers they already have. If they didnt add on unlawful extortionate fees. If they were more professional about their job, then maybe you would not get so much opposition. The truth is that they are not. They are often bullies, liars, and motivated by their own bonuses.

 

As for posts being removed from this thread. I wholly agree with Jonni2bad. Guilty myself of making a few posts out of anger and sheer frustration. But Blacksheep, you have goaded most of us into this. Everyone on this site cares about human rights and civil liberties. You have ridden rough shod over everyones constructive comments and bottom line, you only care about one thing. The money!

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Couldnt have put it better myself Stan ;-) I too have been guilty of posting the odd post out of sheer frustration, as you say Stan, goaded by the blinkered obsession of you blacksheep. I agree too over the comment of you blacksheep riding rough shod over other peoples postings. I on numerous occasions have asked you to READ properly peoples posts on here but all you seem to want to do is be argumentative, the only reason YOU personally want these powers is so YOU can get what your owed by someone else, I sympathise with your situation but two wrongs do not make one right!

I'm Now off the soap box! :-D

Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.:smile:

everyone is entitled to MY opinion!:D

I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.

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I'm not arguing with anyone - I am trying to logically put forward a counter viewpoint to each point that has been mentioned. Its something that reasonable and intelligent people do when having a debate.

 

As to peoples debts that aren't the current occupiers of the property this would be addressed either in court or via the court representative who came to inspect if there were any non essential valuables.

 

How many chances should people be given to pay? If they continually ignore or refuse to pay I believe that there are enough tiers to weed out the unable from the unwilling.

 

I also continually state that bailiffs who do have powers to enter property should be properly licensed and escorted by the police, which should reduce the likelyhood of false statements and threats.

 

I don't feel I have goaded anyone, I have put forward a reasonable structured arguement for the use of the power of entry and seizure. How is anything I have said any more of riding rough shod over peoples points of view than everyone else regarding my point of view? And there have been few constructive comments and only deemed so because they agree with your point of view - again I bring up the analagy between how peoples views here may be seen as right/wrong, views on white supremacy forums may be seen as right/wrong but to the whole country they may be viewed very different so do not judge others views as to the majority you may be the one who is not right.

 

And what is wrong in the end about caring about what is owed to you, money that possibly you paid out already maybe more than what is claimed back? If the person can pay they should be morally and legally obliged to if they have the means. I do not think it is a wrong that if someone refuses to pay what they owe and more than can afford it that it should be taken from them by any means necessary - if they drag it out so far that it means forcibly taking items from them then there is nobody left to blame other than the creditor.

 

Infact in different circumstances you all bay for your pound of flesh - your bank charges, distance selling, sale of goods act and when you get a ruling you will quite happily send bailiffs into a workplace where they could scare and threaten innocent people. You need to see that both ends are the same you too are after money and will use any means you can find to get it.

 

As for posts being removed I could maybe understand if I had slung muck your way, but I didn't and you could easily have altered or appologised for posts many days after posting them. It is only after they were reported and mods stepped in that vague excuses come out.

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Infact in different circumstances you all bay for your pound of flesh - your bank charges, distance selling, sale of goods act and when you get a ruling you will quite happily send bailiffs into a workplace where they could scare and threaten innocent people. You need to see that both ends are the same you too are after money and will use any means you can find to get it.

 

As for posts being removed I could maybe understand if I had slung muck your way, but I didn't and you could easily have altered or appologised for posts many days after posting them. It is only after they were reported and mods stepped in that vague excuses come out.

 

 

In reply, I fight for what is rightfully mine, what I wont do is condone violence in order to get what I am owed lawfully! Yes, most of us are on here to get back what has been unlawfully taken from us, thats what this site is all about. I make no vague excuse for anything I may or may not have said, I stated I have posted in frustration and I stand by that statement, I am big enough to admit my mistakes, I've made quite a lot in the past. As for Bailiffs being in company of Police officers, there are not enough Police on our streets to deal with rising crime let alone accompany a Bailiff for a civil debt. This in most scenarios will never happen, lack of resources etc... leaving the Bailiffs to do as they want if they are given the new powers.

Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.:smile:

everyone is entitled to MY opinion!:D

I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.

If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.

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But say for arguments sake that the bailiffs to be involved with this scheme were highly trained and licensed and accompanied by police, then in cirumstances where people continually refused to pay, could afford to and had non essential goods that would cover a legitimate debt would it not be acceptable (seeing that they have had many chances to make good and now have brought about this action upon themselves) to send in these bailiffs with police to recover what was owed?

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But say for arguments sake that the bailiffs to be involved with this scheme were highly trained and licensed and accompanied by police, then in cirumstances where people continually refused to pay, could afford to and had non essential goods that would cover a legitimate debt would it not be acceptable (seeing that they have had many chances to make good and now have brought about this action upon themselves) to send in these bailiffs with police to recover what was owed?

 

 

Try reading my post earlier blacksheep, this is what I said at the end of it:

As for Bailiffs being in company of Police officers, there are not enough Police on our streets to deal with rising crime let alone accompany a Bailiff for a civil debt. This in most scenarios will never happen, lack of resources etc... leaving the Bailiffs to do as they want if they are given the new powers.

Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.:smile:

everyone is entitled to MY opinion!:D

I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.

If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.

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and read the first few words of my last post - for arguments sake

 

it was a ficticious pretend it will happen along the lines of for arguments sake say you were sat there with Robbie Williams, Kiera Knightly and David Beckham - hey its never going to happen but it was a for instance in that situation.....

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The problem is, your just trying to goad people into arguments, we are not in a world of pretence this is "THE REAL WORLD" for arguments sake?? You obviously admit in that comment you made, your here to argue. I'm sure Bailiffs breaking in and assaulting people wouldnt listen to a "for instance"

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and you are just trying to argue - for arguments sake is a turn of phrase. So I ask again in an ideal situation with police being present and the bailiffs having been trained and vetted and the person has been given multiple chances to pay, can afford to and has goods that are non essential and will settle the debt that is definatley theirs should the bailiffs be allowed to take goods to cover the debt?

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Whilst I agree with blacksheep in principle we do not live in an ideal world. Over an 18 month period my world felt like it was falling apart as i experienced 1st hand just how low these people will sink.

My disabled mother has been threatened, neighbours and work colleagues informed of my debts.

This was all down to change of circumstance not high living and holidays.

Given the opportunity i have no doubt that some of these people would have taken full advantage of any powers of restraint they had.

In essence, when you are down already all rational thinking goes straight out the window,you may feel like an injured animal and we all know how that animal will react when its cornered and threatened.

 

These are only my opinions and i am thankful for having found this site eventually x

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and you are just trying to argue - for arguments sake is a turn of phrase. So I ask again in an ideal situation with police being present and the bailiffs having been trained and vetted and the person has been given multiple chances to pay, can afford to and has goods that are non essential and will settle the debt that is definatley theirs should the bailiffs be allowed to take goods to cover the debt?

 

Hi blacksheep,

 

If we are now talking about "ideal situations"... we would all have enough money to live on and we would all have jobs for life. Seeing as those "ideal situations" are never likely to happen for most of us, then why should we consider yours as a possibility ?

 

:)

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