Highview/DCB(L) ANPR PCN - Letter of Claim - Now Claimform - overstay - Riverside Retail Park in Norwich, Norfolk.

[lookinforinfo]

Well you would think that would be the case. Sadly i doubt there is one honest broker within the BPA or IPC and most of their members. they are there to take as much money as they can from motorists regardless of PoFA.  

Take the Consideration  period for example. This is a minimum of 5 minutes to allow motorists to find a parking space, read the T&Cs giving them enough time to leave the car park without having to pay if they decide not stay. Simple. Well it would be simple if it were any other company than BPA [or IPC who have now fallen into line with BPA's "reasoning"]. 

You see if you decide to stay then despite the fact that during the Consideration period when you still weren't classed as parking , once you accept the terms [with all the underhand little tricks designed to trip you up] that five minutes is now included in your parking time.

[No not the parking period because the poor dears who ANPR cameras are apparently unable to work out what the exact parking period is since their ever so infallible cameras [yeah right] are incapable of tracking cars once they are in a car park]. After 12 years they still haven't worked out a way of doing it.

Some of them fudge and the majority [with a wink from their ATA [Accredited Trade Association though it should be Discredited Trade Association] just ignore the parking period all together.

This is what BPA claim is the Consideration period

• Entrance grace period: This is for when motorists enter a car park, read the signs and/or attempt to make payment then leave. In these instances, motorists must be offered a reasonable amount of time before an operator takes enforcement action, but we do not define this time, due to the variance in size and layout of car parks. An entrance grace period for a small, permit-only car park could be below 5 minutes, whereas for a large multi-story this could be 15.

But  heaven forbid that anyone should leave 6 or 7 minutes after entering  their member's car parks. . They are dutybound to receive a PCN. This is regardless of how busy the car park would be [Christmas eve for example ] .Our minimum is their maximum.

Moving on to Grace periods. Again BPA gobble degook.

• Exit grace period: This must be a minimum of 10 minutes and this is when a motorist intends to stay – for example, if you paid for an hour but spent a total of 1 hour 10 minutes on-site, you will not receive a PCN. It is important to note that the grace period is not a free period of parking however and should not be advertised as such.
• If that ten minutes in not free parking what is it. their members all think they can send out PCNs for anything after 1 minute after the exact time never mind ten minutes.

Our snotty letters have stood the test of time. Do not try to reinvent the wheel -especially with DCBL . They don't even know what a non compliant PCN is for goodness sake! You already know more about PoFA then they do. However if you include that they will find a way to disabuse the Judge of your logic and the law. So don't give them the chance. 

I am sure you have the Parking Prankster going on about the rogues misusing the rules on planning permission by lying and stating that they had "retrospective permission". There is no such thing in English law yet Judges were swallowing it until one Judge pulled up Parking Eye about one of their Witness Statements alluding to "rp" by claiming it was "tantamount to perjury".  It wasn't tantamount, it was plain and simple perjury.

Parking Prankster: The great private car park planning approval scam

PARKING-PRANKSTER.BLOGSPOT.COM

---

Guest blog from shuteyepark, from the Consumer Action group forums In December 2013 my daughter received a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) fro...

Hope it wasn't too long winded Nicky Boy.

[anotheruser0000]

Yep, I agree with what you are saying, I only mentioned the governing body code of practice as a nod to the fact that I wasn't dismissing the BPA or whoever out of hand, thought that would go in my favour before a judge. I wrote a long post about the BPA CoP earlier but then deleted it because I realised I wasn't talking about points of law but a set of guidelines drawn up by one bunch of charlatans for another bunch of charlatans.

It is ludicrous that the 5 minute consideration period doesn't apply if the motorist parks, such nonsense.

As for legislation, I was referring to the government legislation (if it is legislation?) document which has been withdrawn.

Does that stand until it has been reintroduced?

In the explanatory document it is quite clear. Otherwise, how does one hold them to the consideration and grace periods?

Or is that at the discretion of the judge?

[dx100uk]

we certainly don't advise tipping them off providing anything that might 'play your cards' and elude to what your WS might contain at the defence stage.

 

[anotheruser0000]

Yes, I understand that but I thought, given that's a strong point, they might decide to discontinue and it might not go any further.

Not that I'm bothered about going to court, it's just that I don't get anything out of it if I do.

I propose a new rule. If the defendant wins, the claimant should have to award the defendant the sum of costs they were seeking.

Which in my case is £140 thank you very much.

Then it would be worthwhile and they might think twice about pursuing through the courts, lol!   

Edited April 20 by anotheruser0000

[honeybee13]

Two of the forum experts, LFI and dx have told you what they think about forewarning DCBL.

It's up to you whether you want to believe them of course.

HB

[anotheruser0000]

Yep, and I agree with them but like I said, my thinking was how can they refute it? .... that's why I asked for opinions

As FTMDave said earlier:  Consideration & grace periods cover 15 minutes so you're in a good position.

Unless the C&G periods are not actually laid down in law and it's all just down to their discretion.

 

 

 

[honeybee13]

How many opinions will you need saying it isn't a good idea to do what you're suggesting for you to believe us please?   And do you have previous experience of dealing with DCBL?

Fwiw, I'm on team LFI and dx.

HB

[dx100uk]

Do not play your cards ever in a defence

Dx

[anotheruser0000]

I got two opinions on that particular point, and then I explained my reasoning, I didn't dispute them.

No, not DCBL, the only time I took on solicitors was about 25 years ago, half an hour consultation with a solicitor then the rest was up to me, couldn't afford legal fees at the time.

18k out of court settlement result but no, not been through the court process or dealt with PPC's, that's why I'm here

Don't think there was any forum like this then either, it was a hard slog reading through court cases and points of law.

 

Edited April 20 by anotheruser0000

[Nicky Boy]

Everything is down to the discretion of PPC's.... Until it gets in front of  judge

[anotheruser0000]

Hmmm,

OK, Thanks Nicky Boy .... That's a potential problem then

[dx100uk]

PPC's .....descretion..in the same sentence...

[lookinforinfo]

In response to your post 52, the new Government  Private parking Bill has been withdrawn for the moment and will not take effect until it comes into force. It cannot come soon enough but in the meantime the rogues are trying to rip as many motorists off as possible before the changes come into force.

Yes their interpretation of the Grace period is ludicrous it defies logic and the Law until it comes into force. But that's what you get when the lunatics run the asylum.

[anotheruser0000]

As I had been reading about planning permission in other threads I thought I would query PP at Riverside.

After searching online regarding planning permission for the retail park and finding nothing, I spoke to the planning department on the phone and they said they couldn't find anything but that's because of the length of time the retail park has been there which is well over ten years.

Therefore, even if the PPC had not applied for PP at the time, the cameras, (didn't ask about signs) have been there for longer than ten years so would have deemed consent and the council would not take any action against them if a complaint was made.

[lookinforinfo]

the Town and Country [advertisments ] Regulations 2007 are not easy to understand. Most Council planing officials don't so it's good that you found one who knows. Although he may not have been right if the rogues have not been "controlling" in the car park for that long. The time only starts when the ANPR signs go up, not how long the area has been used as a car park.  

Sadly I have checked Highview out and they have been there since at least 2014 .

I have looked at the BPA Code of Practice version 8 which covers 2023 and that states Re Consideration and Grace Periods 13.3 Where a parking location is one where a limited period of parking is permitted, or where drivers contract to park for a defined period and pay for that service in advance (Pay & Display), this would be considered as a parking event and a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be added to the end of a parking event before you issue a PCN.

It then goes on to explain a bit more further down

13.5 You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is. 13.6 Neither a consideration period or a grace period are periods of free parking and there is no requirement for you to offer an additional allowance on top of a consideration or grace period.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________So you have  now only overstayed 5 minutes maximum since BPA quote a minimum of 10 minutes. And it may be that the Riverside does have a longer period perhaps because of the size of the car park? So it becomes even more incumbent on you to remember where the extra 5 minutes could be. 

Were you travelling as a family with children or a disabled person where getting them in and out of the car would take longer. Was there difficulty finding a space, or having to queue to get out of the car park . Or anything else that could account for another 5 minutes  without having to claim the difference between the ANPR times and the actual times.

[anotheruser0000]

Yep, I read that and thought about trying to find out what the consideration and grace period is at Riverside but not sure I can.

I know they say "You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is"  but I doubt they would disclose it to the public, maybe I should have asked in my CPR 31.14 letter?

Yes, I think I can get rid of 5 minutes. I am also going to include a point about BPA CoP:

13.2 The reference to a consideration period in 13.1 shall not apply where a parking event takes place.

I think that is Deception .... They giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other!

One other point to note, the more I read, the more I study, the more proficient I feel I am becoming in this area.

Make no mistake DBCL if you are reading this, when I win in court, if I have the grounds to make any claims against you, such as breach of GDPR,

I shall be doing so.

[lookinforinfo]

Though it would be Highview you would  pursue. DCBL are nonentities-on their best day,

[anotheruser0000]

Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant ....

I said DCBL because I was reading a few threads about them discontinuing claims and getting spanked in court!

Meant  YOU  Highview !!! 

The more I read this forum and the more I engage with it's incredible users, the more I learn and the more my knowledge expands.

If my case gets to court, the Judge will dismiss it after I utter my first sentence, and you DCBL and Highview don't even know why ....

OMG! .... So excited to get to court!

With regard to the ANPR cameras in your post #65, while I was on the phone to the Planning Department, they did take a look at Google Streetview and went back to 2012 where they could see the ANPR cameras in place so therefore they would have deemed consent. I had previously read the T&C Planning Regulations and had read the section on deemed consent so I understood the point they made on the phone.

It doesn't matter though, that doesn't harm my case any, and I shouldn't really mention this now, (this is what you reminded me of on another thread) but in the past I was a member of a scheme that gave me access to legal advice, I have spoken to a barrister previously through this scheme on another matter and I think I am still a member.

I am going to check if I am still a member of the scheme, and if I am I will discuss my case with a barrister or solicitor, whichever the scheme deems appropriate.

I will let you know the outcome.

I am also going to take Bankfodders advice in the sticky and go to the local court and ask if I can sit in on a case in the Judges office.

[honeybee13]

Could you link us to BankFodder's post please? I assume you mean a familiarisation visit but the judge's office means something different to me.

HB

[anotheruser0000]

Yes, I will, I have a million bookmarks and I will post it here as soon as I find it.

EDIT: Here we go, took less time than I thought it would:

Edited April 24 by anotheruser0000

[honeybee13]

We're talking about the same thing but I think you mean a hearing in court rather than in chambers.

It's a good idea to do it.

HB

[anotheruser0000]

Yep, I agree honeybee, I think it is an excellent idea and I am going to see if I can do this and if I do I will update my thread here to tell of my experience and hopefully it will be useful to others.

I want to do whatever I can to help anyone else in my situation.

[jk2054]

HB may i ask why in court rather than chambers?

[honeybee13]

BF's sticky talks about court rather than the judge's office. I've just never heard of a member of the public being invited into a chambers meeting.

I'm happy to be proved wrong.

HB

[anotheruser0000]

From BF's  Sticky:

Speak to the court usher in one of the court rooms and say that you want to sit in quietly on two or three court proceedings.

Make it clear to the Usher that you are interested in sitting in on a case or two in the judge's office - not in open court.

This will surprise them further still as most people really want to see a robed and wigged judge sitting below the Royal Coat of Arms.

However, you want to see what it is like in the Small Claims procedure and this is almost always conducted in an office.