Employment tribunal hearing coming up

[FTMDave]

I see you've found the Virgin thread which has been used as the "template" for the other SAR distress threads.

 

You're right, the process is extremely straightforward.

 

You can sue them for a couple of hundred quid for distress and keep doing it every month or so until they respect the SAR.

 

The only thing to consider is if you really want to sue your employer.  If you do, relations will get even worse, but then you may already think they are as bad as they could be.

 

If you want to go down that route, post up a draft of a Letter of Claim.

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

How much legal advice have you had on this apart from your union rep and when is the hearing please? 

 

I ask because you're asking fairly basic questions that people advising you should know the answers to. 

 

My other question is what you're would like to happen by going to a tribunal?

 

HB

 

 

 

[Lorenz]

Unfortunately there's nobody with strong legal background advising me.

My union washed their hands off everything and didn't even show up at the grievance. 

Not only for myself but for other people who had clear cut cases (unpaid overtime for example).

My husband is a union activist and was a rep for a few years, but that's about it.

Is the question about witnesses that prompted you?

I asked because even the ET helpline didn't have a straight answer. 

They weren't sure if I could call witnesses to support my case but work for the other side.

[Nicky Boy]

Is your husband still a qualified rep?

If so, he can accompany you to grievances.

[Lorenz]

No, not a rep anymore. 

He stepped down a few years ago because of corruption within the union which he couldn't shut up about.

He was also involved in that Mcalpine mess, but I don't know to what extent. 

The 2 old friends he was helping with the paperwork accepted a £75k settlement each.

What I know is that he can keep cool in difficult situations and speaks very clearly.

He should be the president of the "crystal clear" campaign. 

He accompanied me to a "support" meeting with hr when I refused to attend on my own.

He slaughtered them.

He asked them some awkward questions and pushed evidence under their nose and all they could say (whilst blushing and looking at the floor) was that the meeting had to focus on the support they wished to offer me after the (I quote) "failed grievance"

This support materialised yesterday when they announced that they were changing my shifts again.

I wish he could have been at grievance meeting. 

[Ethel Street]

27 minutes ago, Nicky Boy said:

Is your husband still a qualified rep?

If so, he can accompany you to grievances.

 

I believe that only applies if he is a current representative of Lorenz's union representing workers in Lorenz's workplace, or if he is a paid employee of Lorenz's union. I got the impression that Lorenz's husband was a union rep somewhere else rather than in Lorenz's own workplace, but I may have got that wrong. 

 

@Lorenz why did the union wash its hands of the grievance and ET claim? You pay your subscription to get help in cases like this. Did you complain to the union regional office about their lack of support? It may well be that the complex issues you are dealing with are beyond the expertise of your local rep but then the union should assign someone more experienced from regional office to help you.

 

[EDIT  Posted before I had seen Lorenz's explanation above]

[Lorenz]

Yes, my husband is in a different union.

Our union reps are useless. 

My colleague managed to get one to attend a case and he didn't say one word, he just sat there in silence despite my colleague being attacked left right and centre by the 2 managers sitting there.

I complained to the regional branch and they assigned me this same rep, so I said "no, thanks. I want another one".

They never replied.

Anyone knows about the witness issue?

[honeybee13]

So are you running your own case? I hope you've submitted all the right paperwork to the tribunal if they've requested it.

 

I did ask when your case is due to be heard.

 

HB

[honeybee13]

The answer to your witness question should be in this from the CAB.

 

Attending your employment tribunal hearing

WWW.CITIZENSADVICE.ORG.UK

---

Find out what happens on the day of the hearing, how you'll give evidence, how you'll get the tribunal's decision

 

HB

[Ethel Street]

I have no experience or expert knowledge of compelling witnesses to attend an ET hearing but a quick look at gov.uk says you can apply for the Tribunal to issue a Witness Order but it's at Tribunal's discretion. You can't demand a Witness Order as a right.

 

 

You can bring witnesses to the hearing if they can give evidence directly relevant to the case.

If you ask a witness to attend and they do not want to, you can ask the tribunal to order them to come. You must apply in writing to the tribunal office dealing with the case, giving:

• the name and address of the witness
• details of what the witness may be able to say and how it will help the case
• the reason the witness has refused to attend (if they gave you one)

You’ll most likely be responsible for paying the witness’s expenses.

 

Being taken to an employment tribunal: Before the hearing - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

And this information on an employment barristers site gives more detailed information

http://www.civitaslaw.com/barrister-news-and-events/witness-orders-employment-tribunal7

 

I noted these comments in it which you might want to consider

-  Get your request for Witness Order to the Tribunal as far in advance of the hearing as possible.

-  You must first ask the witness yourself before applying for a Witness Order

-  "a party is not permitted to cross-examine their own witnesses". You need to find out what that means and its implications for you.

 

I emphasise this is not my expert knowledge, just what I have found online for you. So you need to verify it before acting.

 

 

[Lorenz]

@honeybee13So far they've set a hearing for April and said that I have to submit the documents I want to rely on at least 7 days before the hearing and send a copy to the respondent.

They didn't ask for anything else. 

 

@Ethel StreetYes, that's what I saw and asked the ET helpline,  but they weren't sure how someone from the other side could be forced to attend.

The hearing is online, so I don't know what expenses they could claim apart for 3 hours work at their salaried rate £10/hour 

[Ethel Street]

Your question was "Is it possible to get my manager to sit as a witness to be cross examined?" 

 

From the link I gave you it appears that even if you were able to get an Order for him to attend you couldn't cross examine him. If that is the position (I'm not a lawyer) ask yourself how helpful it would be to you if you can't cross examine him? But your employer could.  Are you sure it would be a good idea to have him give evidence? Anyway he might already be a witness for your employer. 

 

A case is cited in the article (fourth paragraph from the end) that has similarities to yours where the Witness Order was refused.

 

 

[honeybee13]

In case it's relevant, this is from the CAB link I posted.

 

Check what to do when it's your employer's turn to give evidence

They’ll call their witnesses. You or your representative can ask the witnesses questions in cross-examination.

 

If you don't have a representative, the judge will ask if you've got any questions you'd like to ask the witnesses. This is your chance to ask them about their evidence. It's important to ask about all the facts you’re relying on as part of your case. 

 

You can find out more about how to prepare your questions. 

 

You might feel angry towards your employer, but don’t be rude or aggressive towards them or their witnesses - that might damage your case.

[Lorenz]

Thanks everyone. 

How's this for the dpa breach?

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

On 03rd October 2022 I sent you a subject access request for a statutory disclosure of my personal data under the Data Protection Act.

You have failed to comply despite two complaints to the Information Commissioner Office.

Your breach of statutory duty is complete.

It has caused me a great deal of distress not having my data which, as you are aware, I need in the upcoming Employment Tribunal case.

Also, the repeated necessity to chase after you to get this disclosure and having to suffer your repeated broken promises on the matter is contributing to cause further distress and anxiety. 

I shall be beginning a County Court claim against you in 7 days and I am giving you an opportunity to respond with a full disclosure,  notwithstanding that I reserve my right to act upon your breach of data protection legislation which has already occurred. 

Yours faithfully

[FTMDave]

Looks good to me.

 

The only change I would make is to give them 14 days to answer.

 

I presume you're using e-mail (if you're using snail mail get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office).

 

If none of the other regulars object, send it off tomorrow.

 

Entitle it LETTER OF CLAIM.

 

 

[Lorenz]

I gave 7 days because the ET hearing is in 4 weeks and I have to produce all documents at least a week before.

I suppose they'll not comply  so it won't make any difference. 

What do you think?

7 or 14 days?

Thanks

[FTMDave]

From some Googling it seems that 14 days is generally accepted, but the important thing is to give them a "reasonable" time.

 

I'm thinking therefore that you could get away with the 7 days but to tweak your letter to show why that is a reasonable time.  So -

 

 

LETTER OF CLAIM

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

On 03rd October 2022 I sent you a subject access request for a statutory disclosure of my personal data under the Data Protection Act.  You have not complied with your statutory duty.
 

It has caused me a great deal of distress not having my data which, as you are aware, I need for the upcoming Employment Tribunal case.

 

Also, the repeated necessity to chase after you to get this disclosure and having to suffer your repeated broken promises on the matter is contributing to cause further distress and anxiety. 

 

You have failed to comply after more than five months and after receiving numerous reminders, and despite two complaints to the Information Commissioner's Office.  You know full well that the matter is urgent as the Employment Tribunal case will be heard in 4 weeks.

Therefore I am giving you a final 7 days in which to satisfy my subject access request and if you do not do so I shall be beginning a County Court claim against you for £200 for distress.

Yours faithfully,

 

 

I'm flagging this up to experienced Site Team members who will be able to answer this 7 v 14 day matter.

Edited March 16, 2023 by FTMDave
Grammar improved

[Nicky Boy]

Just a thought, could Lorenz ask for an adjournment using the reasoning that the respondent's SAR isn't forthcoming and she needs the information to support her tribunal claim...

Or would that create an excessive delay?

[Lorenz]

I'm 100% sure they won't provide the documents in any case because it would prove my case at ET.

Their target is to make me resign, that's why they're trying their best to make it impossible for me to continue working.

There are people in worst situation than mine.

Some colleagues are owed thousands in unpaid wages for what they call "admin errors", but month after month these errors keep on being repeated and the figures keeps on going up.

One colleague left last week because she couldn't afford to live on half the wage which they've been paying her, but she's not prepared to take them to court.

She's owed over £2k.

A lot of people are scared of courts and companies in general know this, that's why they try their luck.

[Nicky Boy]

Is it specific documents that you know exist that you're looking for?

If so, I believe you can ask for a tribunal judge to order disclosure?

 

Maybe

@Emmzzi

or

@Ethel Street

Can confirm??

[Ethel Street]

Sorry, I don't know enough about ET procedure to answer that.

[Lorenz]

Yes, it's specific documents which they'll deny being in possession of. 

They've already claimed that the previous company didn't give them my contract at point of tupe.

But when I sent a sar to my previous company,  they said everything had been passed on to them.

That's why I questioned how it is possible that they knew what roster we were all doing and in particular how did they know I worked part time on fixed shifts for a specific salary?

Did they just guess and coincidentally get it right?

For 350 employees?

I find that hard to believe. 

They must've been given a transfer sheet with a list of employees, job titles, annual leave, pay, hours and rosters.

But they're adamant that they were never told what anyone was doing before being transferred.

My thinking is that hopefully the judge at ET will see that they're lying. 

[FTMDave]

As no-one has objected, send off the version of the Letter of Claim in post 42.

 

As you know they won't comply, you might as well draft your Particulars of Claim.  There is an example in the Virgin thread.

[FTMDave]

If you haven't yet done what I posted two hours ago, change the time to 10 days and send.

 

Someone who is an expert in these matters has just written to me -

 

Would 10 days suffice? 7 seems a little short and could be viewed as unreasonable.

 

 

[Lorenz]

Ok, at this point I just give the standard 14 days and wait a bit longer.

They'll surely won't send me anything.