Bank Windscreen PCN - parked in BB bay without BB- Merry Hill Shopping Centre

[TheCat08]

My Daughter, visiting from Scotland, took her Mom (my disabled wife) shopping.  My wife  ( holder of the Blue Badge) forgot to display it!!

 

Of course there was a PCN attached to the car on their return.   Needless to say, my daughter & me are not very happy with her.  I've attached the PCN. 

 

Given my friends last encounter with these scammers, I want to stop them before they take it further.  Preferably without paying the extortionate £50 for a genuine error!! 

 

How is it best to reply to this please? 

[FTMDave]

I think there is something in the government Code of Practice about retrospective evidence of holding a BB.  Very busy at work at the mo but will look into this this evening.

 

Sorry for the lack of reply.  Loads to do this evening and now knackered.  Will look in tomorrow.

 

Found it!

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-parking-code-of-practice/private-parking-code-of-practice

 

F.3 Appeals

In considering appeals parking operators must recognise the following as mitigating circumstances warranting cancellation of a parking charge, subject to evidence being provided:

 

e) where a Blue Badge has not been displayed but the holder of the Blue Badge supplies a copy of the Blue Badge they hold that would have been valid at the time and in the circumstances identified in the notice of parking charge i.e. that the holder was in the vehicle whether or not as the driver);

 

I'm going to throw an atypical idea into the ring.

 

We say never to appeal.  Why?  Because PPCs never accept appeals.  Plus most people who appeal out themselves as the driver.

 

However, I'm just wondering whether, on this occasion, you should appeal and quote the government CoP at them.  They won't accept it, they won't cancel, but it would put them in an impossible situation further down the line if they ever threatened court.

 

However, as i say, this is an atypical idea.  Hang on for 24 hours and see what the other regulars think.

 

In the meantime please upload the fleecers' invoice and fill in the sticky -

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by FTMDave
Typo

[Homer67]

Isn't the Blue Badge scheme inoperable/unenforceable on private land?

 

Also was it your daughter's car? If so she lives in Scotland and there's no POFA so as long as the PPC doesn't know who the driver was they don't stand a chance.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Homer67
extra text

[TheCat08]

Homer67 It was my daughter's car & she does live in Scotland.  Just so I get this right in my brain,  As she lives in Scotland, but the PCN was issued in England, the PCN does not stand? 

 

I didn't think the BB was enforceable on Private Land?

 

However, as FTMDave knows & from experience, these fleecers will twist anything to get a payment, so am thinking an appeal may be the way to go, unless of course there would be no chance of action due to my daughter living in Scotland? 

 

For a windscreen ticket (Notice To Driver) please answer the following questions....

1 The date of infringement?                      31/12/2022
 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?]              NO 

 

So as there is no POFA in Scotland, they should not be able to obtain the keeper details?  Am I right? 

 

If they do get these, would this be a breach of the Freedom Of Information Act? 

 

PCN January.pdf

[FTMDave]

Scotland!

 

This could well change everything.

 

So your daughter is the registered keeper of the car, so when the fleecers get the keeper's details from the DVLA they will be for a Scottish address.  Is that right?

[TheCat08]

FTMDave - That's absolutely right !!

[dx100uk]

the RK or driver being resident in scotland, doesnt really make much diff, it is where the car park is that makes the key diff in the scottish case

[TheCat08]

dx100uk - So it's probably best as FTMDave has said about appeal and quote the government CoP at them?

 

Can I also ask. 

Are the fleecers allowed to take photo's of the inside of a vehicle or would this be invasion of privacy? 

 

There isn't an issue with providing them with a copy of the BB, but wondering if BB are not enforceable on private land, how do they get away with issuing PCN's for a space which is merely a courtesy? 

 

FTMDave   Regarding https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-parking-code-of-practice/private-parking-code-of-practice

There is a section right at the top of this stating :-

Quote

This guidance was withdrawn on 7 June 2022

Private Parking Code of Practice is temporarily withdrawn pending review of the levels of private parking charges and additional fees.

 

-     Has this then given the fleecers a free rein with parking charges & this is why they are winning court cases? 

 

[FTMDave]

Sorry, at work now,will explain everything late this evening.

[dx100uk]

correct blue badges mean nothing on private land.

however the fleecers dont miss a chance at issuing a speculative invoice, even when there is no law to allow them too however it will be in their contract, it a bit like you must display a free parking ticket/permit even though there is no charge at all to park there. its how they make their money .

 

i remember one thing mind

each bay must have a sign on a pole not just tarmac graffiti saying its a bb bay i think

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

dx is of course right that it is the location of the private land that is important - in this case in England.

 

I suggest your daughter send the fleecers this:

 

 

Dear Bank Park Management Ltd.,

 

Re: Parking Charge Notice/Notice to Driver no.XXXXX date 31.12.2022

 

I wish to appeal against this invoice.

 

The invoice was issued for "Parking in disabled bay without clearly displaying a valid disabled badge".

 

One of the occupants of the vehicle possesses a valid disabled badge, a photocopy of which I enclose.

 

The government Code of Practice, set up under the Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019, states in section F.3 Appeals:

 

"In considering appeals parking operators must recognise the following as mitigating circumstances warranting cancellation of a parking charge, subject to evidence being provided:

 

e) where a Blue Badge has not been displayed but the holder of the Blue Badge supplies a copy of the Blue Badge they hold that would have been valid at the time and in the circumstances identified in the notice of parking charge i.e. that the holder was in the vehicle whether or not as the driver)"

 

I would therefore request that you cancel the invoice.

 

Whilst the Code is being legally challenged on (a) the amount of allowed parking charges and (b) the addition of debt collection charges, it is not being challenged on this point or any other point.

 

Yours,

 

XXXXX

 

 

It is important that you, and your daughter. realise that the point of this is not to get the ticket cancelled.  The fleecers won't see sense.  They will reject the appeal.  The point is instead to weaken their case so if later on they start threatening court you have evidence that they were told nigh-on immediately that a BB holder was in the car and they have completely ignored government indications for best practice in the industry.

 

I think the last paragraph addresses the issue of the validity of the CoP.

 

If none of the other regulars object, send it off tomorrow 2nd class (that's all Bank Park are worth) and get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.

[TheCat08]

Thank you both tremendously.  Because of all the valuable help & knowledge you have imparted with me, I have set up a regular monthly payment to the site.  I have also encouraged my daughter to join.

 

Guys, I'm sorry to ask this, but the court case I have just lost

- was because the BB was supposedly "not visible", yet the judge sided with the fleecers.  I've been told there is no point in appealing (Even though the amount, to include he fleecers court costs, is over £500) as another judge will support the other judge in an appeal?? 

 

There are only pictures on the ground at Merry HIll centre & BB are not supposed to be enforceable on Private Land??   

 

The BB had slid off the dash onto the passenger seat,  The fleecers had submitted a "supposed"  picture of the interior of the car, where there was no BB visible, but we gave sent the picture of the valid BB of the person in the car at the time, but they would not accept this??   

 

They showed me the "supposed"  picture of the interior on a tablet.  All you could see in the picture was the door handle & part of the passenger seat & the rest was black, not at all visible.  I don't believe it was the interior of the car we were in on the day. 

[brassnecked]

their photo evidence is often faulty

 

[FTMDave]

If you want to appeal, of course the site will help you all the way.

 

It's just that senior Site Team members, who have worked all their lives in the legal field, are of the opinion that a new judge is unlikely to go against the previous (useless) judge's opinion.

 

I think that you were incredibly unlucky in that (a) the fleecers bothered to turn up to the set aside hearing which hardly ever happens and (b) you hadn't been given any details of what they would be arguing.

[lookinforinfo]

Going back to the BB. Although there is no mention of BBs in the Act itself the parking crooks have to make allowances for disabled people because of the disabled legislation and Judges take a dim view of motorists who abuse the BB system in car parks.

And in the new Private parking Code, there are over 20 mentions of BBs so not wise to  discount them .

[TheCat08]

I've done a little digging & found this article dated 9th Sept 2022 - 

Watch out! Private parking code of practice scrapped - The New Stour And Avon Magazine

STOURAVONMAGAZINE.CO.UK

---

Parking rules and fines have always been strict. But this isn’t an excuse to park illegally. There are rules on when and where you can park on UK roads and car parks. Here’s what you need to know. The Government has...

On reading this, it does appear the government has opened up web to allow motorists to be again exploited by these scammers !!!

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by TheCat08
To add content

[FTMDave]

You're right, although the title is somewhat alarmist.  It hasn't been scrapped,  Near the end they have written, correctly, "The Code of Practice is now pending a review of private parking charges and any additional charges".  So it's only suspended and only two points are being challenged.

 

Did your daughter send the appeal letter?

[brassnecked]

It will eventually come back in the meantime provisions in there can be backed by caselaw where fleecer's have been particular in bending truth.

[TheCat08]

FTMDave - Yes, the letter has been sent & proof of posting retained.  

 

Brassnecked, they will & do exploit every avenue they can !!!   

 

Just thankful to have found this site & the help received.

[FTMDave]

23 minutes ago, TheCat08 said:

FTMDave - Yes, the letter has been sent & proof of posting retained. 

Excellent!

 

Just don't be disheartened when (not if) they reject it.  That will happen.  Charlatans.  Par for the course.

 

You will have it on record that they knew from very early on that a passenger was a genuine BB holder and they also ignored the government CoP.

 

All ammo to humiliate them with six months down the line if they are daft enough to threaten court.

[FTMDave]

Any update?

 

Have the fleecers responded to the appeal?

 

I ask as today we have someone in the same position.

[TheCat08]

Hi FTMDave

 

There has been no reply from them as yet !! ??  

[FTMDave]

Thanks.

 

I've just looked at their stupid trade association's Code of Practice and they have 28 days.

[TheCat08]

HI All. 

 

Well, I've not had any reply to what I sent, but my daughter has had the attachedBank Park KLH-compressed.pdfBank Park KLH-compressed.pdfBank Park KLH-compressed.pdf

 

Should I just resend what I have already sent to them, but this time signed for? 

Edited February 6, 2023 by TheCat08
To add content

[dx100uk]

no its just a trumped up notice to keeper

 

safe to ignore

 

dx