CEL ANPR PCN PAPLOC now claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park Denmark Hill Camberwell, London SE5 8RW***Claim Dismissed***

[StoryBoard]

Hi All

 

I read a previous thread on the subject with interest and followed all that advice provided. I have ignored all the threatening letters until the 'letter before action' was received from Civil Enforcement Limited (letter dated 7th July 2022).

 

Summary:

Vehicle Reg: XXXXXXX (text not shown in this thread)

PCN Reference: XXXXXXXXXXX (text not shown in this thread)

Date of incident: 24/04/2021 (parking in breach of Terms and Conditions on Notice)

Site Details: Car Park at BUTTERYFLY WALK CAR PARK, DENMARK HILL, LONDON, SE5 8RW

Debt Outstanding: £170.00

 

Can I have some advice please on how to proceed? The letter states I need to respond to the letter and complete their Reply Form within 30 days of the date of their letter. 

I paid at the ticket machine before entering Morrisons (don't have ticket anymore) but still have the Morrisons receipt where the £2 charge was deducted from the bill (I showed the parking ticket at the time of purchase to the till cashier to get this reduction).

 

The original PCN was issued on 04/05/2021 and identified the 'from' and 'to' time to be within the 2 hour period paid for.

 

When the first letter arrived I appealed to POPLA explaining the issue and electronically attaching a copy of the receipt as part of the submission but they rejected the appeal and still stated I had to pay. This is when I started searching for information and came across this excellent forum. I have not corresponded with them since despite receiving probably 5 separate letters.

 

I did see a proposed wording letter response in the previous locked thread about using 'de minimis'. Post #70 identified some wording in this respect but assume each claim needs to be worded separately. It also advised not to issue too much information too early.

 

What information would be helpful to post in order to gain some advice? Many thanks in advance. I expect that the CEL lawyers may read these posts out of interest but your help is most appreciated. Thank you. 

[dx100uk]

please complete

 

and scan up ALL letters both sides to one mass PDF

read upload carefully

 

dx

 

[brassnecked]

Please post up the information asked for in the sticky POPLA is a double edged sword, but if you have some proof of payment they are just chancing it  What DCA Paper Tiger threatener's are sending the letter's

 

Do Not use their reply forms, might be a snotty letter reply once we see the other stuff they sent

[FTMDave]

Well done on all the reading you've done.

 

But we need to see the correspondence.  The clock is ticking. 

 

Once we've picked holes in whatever rubbish they've sent you you can compose a suitable snotty letter to tell them where to stick their claim.

[StoryBoard]

Please find documents attached. Thank you.

Civil Enforcement Letter Before Action July 22.pdf Civil Enforcement PCN July 22.pdf

[honeybee13]

OK so it's a letter before claim/acton. Please don't fill in their paperwork they'll just use it against you.

 

Do a search of CAG for 'snotty letter' which is what you need to send them now. They need to know that you'll be trouble if they try to go to court.

 

I expect the experts will be along to advise later.

 

HB

[FTMDave]

What do you reckon the fleecers think you did wrong?

 

You paid.  You didn't overstay two hours.  The fleecers can't be bothered to say what it was in their PCN (which is a good thing as it would scupper them in court).

 

Obviously we have other threads on the site for this car park, and the problem seems to be keying in the registration number.  Could that be it?  Either you didn't key in the reg no or you got part of it wrong?  I ask because we have an excellent "wrong reg" snotty letter already cooked ...

[StoryBoard]

Thanks All

 

Dave

I do not know why they are chasing me? I did key in the registration number into the ticket machine and paid before entering but it is possible I may have keyed it in incorrectly but it wouldn't have been far wrong?

The company originally were sending the letters to an old address of mine but this was changed after I updated the DVLC info for the car registration details.

 

honeybee13

I'll look up the wrong registration snotty letter on CAG. I'll post this on here before I look to send. Thanks.

 

dx100uk

You have asked me to complete a form but I haven't received a court letter so am confused with this?

 

 

[StoryBoard]

Hi All

Searched on CAG and drew this letter up. Does it hit the mark?

Dear Civil Enforcement Limited,

Ref: Letter dated 07/07/2022, PCN reference xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Cheers for your Letter before action - Claim for debt. I smirked at the idea you actually expected me to take your tripe seriously and cough up, which are further exacerbated with your extra unicorn tax made up extras thrown into the mix.

You were paid the correct parking charge. You suffered no loss. In fact the driver left early, so you were paid extra! The chance of typing part of a registration number wrong is clearly "de minimis".

Every time a greedy private parking company has taken such cases to court they have received a belta of a kicking from the judge. Getting the registration number wrong is not a reason for pursuing motorists. That was established when Baroness Walmsley v TFL [2005] EWHC 896 in the High Court of Justice won her case.

I would also point out that the new Government Parking Code of Practice due out shortly of which CEL will be only too well aware since it will severely hamper your money grabbing antics, includes the miscuing of registration numbers.

I have of course kept evidence of the parking payment. 

Should this case go to court despite having pointed out the futility of doing so, I will be asking the Court not only for an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g), but I will also later sue for breach of GDPR as you knew full well your case was totally flawed but still carried on. The standard for breaches of GDPR is now around £750. 

I look forward to your deafening silence.

Yours in mirth

xxxxxx

[FTMDave]

Well researched!  I was just about to push you in that direction but you beat me to it!

[dx100uk]

good work

wish all members would make this kind of simple bit of effort to selfhelp.

 

for some reason a certain set of word point you to a court form.

 

it's this link we need doing

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

threads tidied

[FTMDave]

The snotty letter you adapted was drawn up by the regulars - well mainly by LFI - over a year ago for wrong registration cases, and so far no-one who has used it has been taken to court.  No guarantees of course (!!!)

 

It needs to be slightly adapted.  Address it to "Dear Mirlene" who is the only one of the spivs who runs CEL who dares to show her name on Companies House.

 

Also when the letter was drafted the government CoP was in the future but is now in the past IYSWIM; so change to

 

I would also point out that the new Government Parking Code of Practice published on 7 February this year of which CEL will be only too well aware since it will severely hamper your money grabbing antics, includes the miscuing of registration numbers.

 

Before your "Should this case go to court paragraph" stick in another paragraph.

 

Just in case you think you can sneak in a backdoor CCJ, I am formally informing you that I no longer live at XXXXX but am now resident at XXXXX.

 

The charlatans have been known to do this, to deliberately send court papers to a wrong address in order to win by default.

 

Great work.  Send off tomorrow by 2nd class post - all they deserve - and get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.

[StoryBoard]

Many thanks for the quick responses and support.

 

Dave

I'll amend the letter as recommended and get this posted off this week. Thank you.

 

dx100uk

I'll follow up with the details requested and will cut and paste into this thread.

 

Great work back, very much appreciated.

 

 

 

[StoryBoard]

Evening All

 

I have received this correspondence from CEL this week letter dated 15th August but received on 17th August. Your comments are welcome as this has never been raised before.

Following knowledge of the initial CEL correspondence (sent to the wrong address), I went back to the car park and took photographs of the machine and the surrounding signage. Not sure if this will assist further?

CEL response letter 15_08_22.pdf

[dx100uk]

does not say 'what' proceedings.

std crap.

 

 

[FTMDave]

The LBA was your very last chance to pay otherwise they would roast you in court.

 

And?  They have reacted by ... making you open an envelope.  Mind you I bet it was a really big envelope and it took you ages to open.

 

Is there anything to consider in their bilge about you paying for 1:10 but overstaying till 1:48?

 

I was going to suggest you took photos of the signage - but you beat me to it!  Great work.  Yes, please upload the photos, they may prove vital.

[StoryBoard]

See photos and location where the photos were taken from.

I'll add another post about the alleged duration.

On arrival I went to parking machine to key in the details requested.

When doing so it was noticed that the ticket machine did not accept cards for payment. I never carry money and pay for all items electronically. I have not carried any cash for at least 3 years now. Had to cancel process on the machine.

I went back to search the car but did not have any old change to put in the machine.

I had to therefore go into the Morrisons store and went to the confectionery stall. I was advised by the staff that the only way I could obtain change was to buy an item and receive an element of change in the transaction (small cashback request). There was a small queue before I was served.

I then returned outside to the ticket machine and acquired a parking receipt.

Then returned to the Morrisons shop, undertook my shopping and at the till, redeemed the receipt value paid as part of the shopping transaction. Again there was a queue at this till also.

Went to car, loaded up the shopping and left. I have the Morrisons receipt.

Butterfly walk photos taken May 2021.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

On post 11 dx100uk asked if you fill in some questions that could help your case.

Could you please answer them and include the first PCN they sent suitably redacted showing the front and back of the Notice.

[FTMDave]

Good work with the photos.

 

CEL - oh dear, oh dear.  Their name is nowhere to be seen on the ticket machine or at the information point.  Star Park and/or ABC Facilities Management Ltd are the ones running the car park.

 

Actually not quite true.  On your page 3 CEL are mentioned in the tiniest of tiny print which would seriously unimpress a judge.

 

In post 6 you uploaded the PCN, but you blanked out the period of parking.  When are they claiming you entered the car park and when do they say you left?

 

 

[brassnecked]

Deffo don't think a judge would be impressed with that sign as only inkling CEL are even involved is in that small print it would on face of it  looking at the signbe expected that ABC facilities management would be issuing Invoices.

[StoryBoard]

Q: When are they claiming you entered the car park and when do they say you left? PCN dated 04/05/21

From 24/04/21 11:42:29 To 24/04/21 13:30:09 

Will do, regarding post 11.

The first PCN was included in post #5. Please advise if this isn't sufficient? 

1 Date of the infringement 24/04/2021

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 04/05/2021 see post #5 for PCN (redacted)

3 Date received Sent to wrong address. Forwarded on and received sometime after 08/05/2021 14:31:40 date of postmark

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Yes

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes, seems to be taken from ANPR camera

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Yes, was online to www.ce-service.co.uk

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Yes, attached.

7 Who is the parking company? Return address on envelope was: Civil Enforcement Limited, Horton House, Exchange Flags, Liverpool L2 3PF

8. Where exactly [car park name and town] Butterfly Walk Car Park, Denmark Hill, London SE5 8RW

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. Don't believe so, but could appeal only to www.ce-service.co.uk or to the address as noted in point 7 above.

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here Appealed to POPLA online but was rejected quickly. Also noticed that there was a person in the exit shot on the ANPR picture which is attached (redacted)

Copy the windscreen or ANPR section to your thread and answer the questions...Included in post #5

Exit photo on PCN issued on 04_05_2021.pdf CEL response letter 11_05_2021.pdf

Edited August 22, 2022 by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed

[FTMDave]

On 22/08/2022 at 22:56, StoryBoard said:

Q: When are they claiming you entered the car park and when do they say you left? PCN dated 04/05/21

From 24/04/21 11:42:29 To 24/04/21 13:30:09

You paid £2.  Their signs show £2 is payment for one hour.  So you overstayed.

Not that that matters, their signs show a completely different company run the car park.

[brassnecked]

Yes its akin to the VCS/Excel mix and match judges re less than impressed with those sort of shenanigans.

[StoryBoard]

Evening everyone. I have received a Claim Form through the post with the claimant quoted as CEL with the County Court address being Northampton. The issue date is stated as 19th October but I only received it on 9th November.

 

I will post it up redacted tomorrow.