Smart ANPR PCN - 7 min overstay - NTK not within 14 days but appealed - Parliament street Nottingham ***Cancelled by POPLA***

[Ppcscum]

Hello all

would appreciate advice on next step. Unfortunately the NtK was appealed (did not advise who was driving only appeal was on behalf of registered keeper who was not driver) on the belief it was a 7 min overstay and would be quashed by PPC. Not the case.

paid by ring go app at 1259 expired 1400. 

i also complained to BPA and got standard response that  car was there 71 mins and paid for 60 mins so no breach of CoC.

unable to get picture of T&C board as away with work and a bit of a trek to get to car park.

have received a response to appeal to RK given a POPLA appeal code.

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture] 

(must be received within 14 days from the Incident)

1 Date of the infringement 10/08/22

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]  25/08/22

3 Date received 30/08/22

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] No

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? APNR on entry/ exit

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Yes. Appealed online no copy but cited BPA CoC regarding grace period and flowchart of APNR issued within 14 days

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Y

7 Who is the parking company? Smart parking

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Parliament street Nottingham

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. BPA/ POPLA

 

Back appeal.pdfFront appeal.pdfRedacted PCN.pdf

[FTMDave]

Invoice sent (never mind received) more than 14 days after the event, so no keeper liability.

 

There was a 5-minute consideration period when you arrived for you to get parked up and read the signs, and a 10-minute grace period at the end, so you did not overstay, these periods are fixed by law in the government's Code of Practice and incredibly also incorporated into the BPA's Code of Practice.

 

Smart Parking don't do court.

 

Laugh at their attempts and ignore them, but further down the line you mustn't ignore a Letter of Claim.

Edited September 12, 2022 by FTMDave
Typo

[Ppcscum]

Thanks for the info. Would a short letter advising they haven’t met POFA do? Would like to get them off RK case if possible

[FTMDave]

You've already done that and they came up with some convoluted Alice in Wonderland lies about the 14 days starting after made-up 28 days they have to get the info from the DVLA, which is complete nonsense given that (a) the DVLA process is automatic and they get the info immediately and (b) the DVLA is irrelevant, POFA states you have to receive the PCN within 14 days.

This is the industry that tickets drivers for stopping in NO STOPPING areas at pedestrian crossings where they would otherwise have murdered pedestrians, makes up down-the-rabbit-hole lies about some of the minutes not counting so that drivers who didn't overstay did in fact overstay, puts tickets on the windscreen, photographs them, and then removes them so drivers miss the discount period, etc.  They are charlatans and they.  There is no point in trying to reason with them.

Smart Parking don't do court.  That's all you need to know.

Well!

In a post-dinner nothing-else-to-do-with-my-time moment, I've looked up the BPA's CoP  https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS_Code_of_Practice_January_2020_v8(2).pdf

The paragraphs quoted by Smart actually exist.  But look at the title above them!!!

Not making use of Keeper Liability provisions

22.7 To give drivers early notice of your claim, you should
apply to the DVLA for the keeper details promptly.
Usually this would be applying to the DVLA no more
than 28 days after the unauthorised parking event.
When applying for Keeper Details you must ensure that
you adhere to the DVLA’s guidelines and requirements.

22.8 While we have an expectation that operators will seek to
use the POFA legislation, it is appreciated that there will
be occasions where this might not be possible. If a non-
POFA Notice to Keeper is being issued it must be sent
out as soon as possible and no later than 7 months after
the original parking event.

22.9 You must post the parking charge notice to the keeper
as soon as possible. Your target is to send the parking
charge notice to the keeper of the vehicle no more than
14 days after receiving the keeper data from the DVLA.

[brassnecked]

Ignore them unless they get the cojones to send a Claimform

[lookinforinfo]

Carrying on from FTMDave's post here is  what the BPA Code states and that their members must observe.

 

13.1 The driver must have the chance to consider the Terms and Conditions before entering into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If, having had that opportunity, the driver decides not to park but chooses to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable consideration period to leave, before the driver can be bound by your parking contract. The amount of time in these instances will vary dependant on site size and type but it must be a minimum of 5 minutes.

 

So they ask for a minimum of 5 minutes.

 

13.3 Where a parking location is one where a limited period of parking is permitted, or where drivers contract to park for a defined period and pay for that service in advance (Pay & Display), this would be considered as a parking event and a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be added to the end of a parking event before you issue a PCN.

 

Now they say you must give motorists a period of at least 10 minutes.

 

Complain to the DVLA as Smart have totally ignored the BPA Code of Conduct. Ask them what right they had therefore to send your data to Smart and complain that the DVLA has breached your GDPR.

 

Then complain to the BPA that their member has ignored the Code of Conduct and are fraudulently attempting to get you to pay money that is not owed.  

 

Once you have received their replies go after Smart but do not contact Smart in the meantime.

[Ppcscum]

Thanks for info.

Have complained to BPA which was a waste of time as they have the interests of PPC as top priority. This is proven by the fact they have changed the wording of the CoC to make sure it doesn’t refer to POFA at all regarding ANPR, and also doesn’t allow for a “grace” period if you accept the T&C and park.

technically if you drive into a P&D car park with ANPR by their wording you are required to pay from the minute you enter. So if it takes you 15 minutes to get in, find a space and park. You’re fined as most machines and RingGo start the parking from the minute you open app/ go to machine. It’s a scam plan and simple.

here’s the reply I got:

Smart Parking Limited have responded to advise that a Parking Charge Notice was issued as you entered the site at 12:55pm and exited at 14:07, therefore totalling a duration of 71 minutes.

A 60-minute ticket was purchased via RingGo, and therefore, when purchasing a ticket via RingGo, it is unable to calculate the time from the time the vehicle entered the car park and will therefore assign the payment expiry time based on the time that the ticket was purchased. Please see attached the Parking Charge Notice confirming the timings the vehicle was on site. 

I hope this information is helpful.

As I am unable to identify a breach of our Code of Practice, I have now closed this investigation. 

a response was sent :

There is no dispute over the entry and exit times. The code of conduct states a 10 minute period post parking expiry. As it would be physically impossible to enter the car park and park and pay from entry a grace period on entry to agree to parking conditions is advised in your own code of 5 mins. 

Alongside this had The driver used the machine parking would have been paid for from 1259 also and expired 1400. ANPR does not show the time parked only entry and exit time. The driver exited the car park at 1407 so within the 10 minute grace period in your code of conduct. Therefore a breach of conduct has occurred

Got back:

I refer to the Code of Practice and clause 13.2 – ‘The reference to a consideration period in 13.1 shall not apply where a parking event takes place.’ 

Therefore, the consideration period of 5 minutes only applies to motorist’s which enter a car park and decide not to park

 

from the very association which is supposed to make sure this isn’t a scam.

If you park you don’t get any lieu time and the time you take to enter and park is allowed to be added to the total grace period at the end.

A joke.

They’ve also stated I got a 60 min ticket.

The parking receipt states 1259 to 1400 so 61 mins. 

I would press further with BPA but cant be bothered. 

[brassnecked]

The new code of Practice blows that right out of the water, assumption that parking begins as soon as ANPR reads the numberplate on entry is a no no, its an Unfair Term they are applying that should automatically be void if challenged,.  The BPA might find themselves under pressure very soon with a finding like that.

[FTMDave]

You're both completely right on every point.

 

It's like complaining to the Mafia about extortion payments and being told that given the size and position of your business then the level of extortion payments fixed is the correct one.

 

I doubt the Mafia would be able to argue that in court though.

 

Similarly Smart may well get their bezzies in the BPA to back them up, but on the forum we've never seen Smart have the gonads to do court.  They threaten legal action right up to starting a court claim but ultimately never go further.

[brassnecked]

If they did, this one would likely not end well for them or BPA given the responses made to Ppcscum.

[lookinforinfo]

What they are saying is that if you paid for your ticket within the 5 minute Consideration period then the parking time begins with the time on your ticket though you still have the minimum Grace  period of 10 minutes.

 

We haven't seen your PCN as far as I know so we haven't had the benefit of seeing it. Could you please post it up as they often do not comply with the conditions of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

[Ppcscum]

Popla appeal and ppc withdrew on 3 week point. Shame as I was hoping they’d attempt to contest it given they weren’t remotely pofa compliant and refused my appeal to them. Thanks all for advice

[FTMDave]

Well done on your victory! 

 

We don't normally recommend appealing to POPLA as over the years they've become more & more a tool of the PPCs ... so any info you can give us about how you won would be very useful.

[Ppcscum]

Appealed on following points using a template found.

follows the principle of throw a lot of claims at them and hope they can’t be bothered to dispute it all!

popla appeal copy .pdf

[brassnecked]

Sorry I have had to hide your post as the  attachmant contains personal details and is also a .docx, we do not recommend posting.docx as contain other identifying data, if you couldr please upload  a redacted PDF.