NCP/BW PCN - Gatwick Airport Drop Off Zone - 2 x APNR NTK received after pickup/drop off from outside Permier Inn Hotel

[MoaningCrusader]

I have started this topic separate to the one I already have running concerning the Gatwick North Terminal Drop Off/Pick Up zone.

 

I received 2 NTK's from NCP after picking up and dropping off parents outside Premier Inn Hotel at Gatwick Airport - North Terminal. I presumed you could do this and not have to pay the £5 drop off charge. I guess I have discovered that this area is also part of the adjacent drop off/pick up zone.

 

Please see the sticky below for details of the NTKs and what I have done since receiving them. I am particularly keen to get your thoughts on the BW Legal response to my 'snotty' letter. I hope we can have responses to their apparent evidence and legal claims.

 

I look forward to hearing from you and hopeful rectifying these NTKs.

 

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture] 

(must be received within 14 days from the Incident)

 

Please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringements 

22/12/2021 & 04/01/2022

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 

Neither NTK arrived within 14days. 1st arrived on 19/01/22 for the 22/12/2021 'offence'. The next arrived on 28/01/2022 for the 04/01/2022 'offence'
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

please do not put JPG Picture files into your post

 

3 Date received see previous answer
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] No
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] No
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Give answer here
 

7 Who is the parking company? NCP

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Gatwick Airport North Terminal Drop Off Zone
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

BPA / POPLA
 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure,

please check HERE

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here

 

I have not responded to any of the usual stream of letters for both PCNs. The matter was passed over to BW Legal, as usual. I have now received Letters of Claim for both PCNs (all standard wording, I can supply if required). Both Letters of Claim received the following response from me on 13-07-22 & 20-08-22 respectively after receiving reminders from BW Legal:

 

BW Legal,

Enterprise House,

Apex View,

Leeds

LS11 9BH

 

COPIED TO NATIONAL CAR PARKS LTD

 

Re: PCN Ref *********

 

Dear BW Legal,

 

Thank you for your rather laughable ‘Letter of Claim’ regarding the above speculative invoice sent out without consideration to the current codes of practice laid out by UK Law and your client’s own governing bodies.

  

The greed of your clients has also placed them in a rather precarious legal position regarding costs. As supposedly professional solicitors, I would’ve thought you are familiar with the UK Government’s Code of Practice for your client, a private parking company, and advised them thus. Might I be so bold as to suggest a little homework for you all and refer you to section 9 of the aforementioned Code of Practice.

 

I would suggest you contact your clients immediately and advise them to stop this bullying course of action or be prepared for a costly experience in court. I will first be seeking an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g). 

 

After this, I will look forward to drawing the magistrate’s attention to your client’s failure to adhere to the conditions outlined in POFA 2012 in the issuing of their invoice to myself – the registered keeper of the vehicle *****, while seeking the award of the associated costs of doing so in a court. 

 

In short, I cannot be held legally liable for this charge, only the driver can. I would ask that you now stop harassing me and turn your attention to the individual who was driving the vehicle. I am not legally obliged to supply you with the driver’s details, that will be something you need to find out yourself, before wasting any court’s time. 

 

I really can’t say I look forward to hearing from you again.

 

I have now received a response from BW Legal for the LoC correspondence (see attached pdf)

 

I have yet to receive anything for the 20-08-22 letter from me. But I am sure one will arrive in due course.

 

NCPPCN22-12-21.pdf NCPPCN04-01-22.pdf BWLoCResponse25-08-22.pdf

[FTMDave]

Both PCNs are well out of time for keeper liability.

 

BW Legal's response is bunk.

 

Hold firm and don't pay.

 

Well done on the snotty letter.  The only thing you got wrong was that it is a magistrate in a criminal court, but a judge in a civil court.  BW Legal will have picked up on that but NCP are too stupid to have done so.

Edited September 7, 2022 by FTMDave
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[FTMDave]

I've had a look at Gatwick Airport's site to see if you really were inside the drop-off zone, and it seems you were - see map.

 

Look at how the idiots refer to NCP's invoices.

 

There is also stuff about Blue Badge holders being exempt from the £5 if you contact them in advance - do either of your parents have a Blue Badge?

[FTMDave]

If I refer to an attachment it might be an idea to actually attach it

 

Apologies.

Drop-off zone map.pdf

[FruitSalad1010]

BW Legal wrote "We note your comments regarding the Government Code of Practice however, the Code you refer to refers to the parking operator not adding extra charges for unpaid PCNs. In this case, it was not NCP (EUK) that added the additional charges, it was ourselves."

 

Did BW Legal just admit to inflating the sum claimed by their client?

 

In effect openly stating they have added their legal fees to the claimed sum and, as has been referenced too many times to count are attempting double recovery.

 

Please post up the letter before claim(s) you received.

[lookinforinfo]

I am not aware that BW Legal have a contract with you to add charges . So they have no legal right to add them.

[dx100uk]

so BW were operating as debt collectors then in this instancesand added the fees BEFORE sending PAPLOC's?

 

as quite correctly they can't add any fees at all as a solicitors.

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

In airports on the UK there can be no keeper liability since they are all covered by Byelaws which is  not relevant land thus PoFA cannot apply .

 

And as confirmation of the above in both PCNS they have not stated that the keeper is liable in the Warning. All they have said is that they can take further action but that can only be against the driver and they don,'t know who that is 

[FTMDave]

On one of your other threads regarding your SAR, you have uploaded just one approach to the DVLA on 16.11.2021.

 

Is that right?  Just the one approach in the whole of the SAR?

 

If so, very bad news for the fleecers ...

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi FTMDave,

 

I only uploaded the relevant SAR info for that particular PCN with their initial PCN and Final Reminder before the matter was handed to their 'debt collection'... er sorry... legal team... BW Legal.

 

I can load up the relevant SAR info for this thread now... This time with all details blanked out.

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Guys,

 

Here's the relevant docs in the SAR response I received from NCP. Should it be noted that they only supplied my LoC response for my other PCN currently running with them and the LoC responses I sent them for both these PCNs relevant to this thread?

 

And is there a case here to pursue the DVLA for misuse of my personal data, by sharing it with a private company when they had no right to hold the keeper liable, as on both occasions they have given the info well after the 2 weeks define in POFA 2012?

NCP-SAR22-12&04-01PCNs.pdf

[FTMDave]

Forgot my 2+2=5 above.  The fleecers have to contact the DVLA re every "offence".  i thought they might not have done this.  But they have.

[MoaningCrusader]

No worries FTMDave. My filing on all of this, is starting to get ridiculous. I am also struggling to keep on top of what paperwork is going where.

 

In regards to the DVLA, surely if NCP (or any other private firm) do not contact the DVLA within 2 weeks of the offence, they then have no legal right through POFA to holding the keeper liable and therefore no need for my information. Is this not a misuse of my personal data by both NCP and worse still the DVLA?

 

Please do let me know if I am barking up the wrong tree here. But it strikes me that my information should have been released, as it basically has served no legal purpose.

 

I suppose I would need to wait to see how the judgement falls, but after a win would I not have a case to take further against both the DVLA & NCP?

[FTMDave]

I do think you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

The fleecers can ask the DVLA for info during whatever time frame they want, likewise they can issue their invoices when they want, like any private company.

 

What they cannot do if they don't respect the 14 days is use Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act to transfer liability from the driver to the keeper.  

 

One of your aces in court will be this lack of keeper liability.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by FTMDave
Usual typo

[lookinforinfo]

I presume that the charge for dropping off at Gatwick airport is the same as Heathrow ie £5.  I cannot believe that to increase the charge to £100 from £5 is definitely a penalty regardless of  Parking Eye v Beavis. I am not sure if I have seen that as one of the reasons why the Court should throw these cases out but certainly worth including.

[MoaningCrusader]

Yes Lookinforinfo, it is £5.

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Just received this letter in the post yesterday! (see attached).

 

NCP have decided that one of the NTK/PCN have now been cancelled. I never asked them to cancel it... But I guess they saw fit to. I wonder why the other one is still in place? I received LoCs for both NTKs. This one being the last one received on 25th July. I received the LoC for the first NTK on 22nd June 2022.

 

Also, interestingly, the envelope had a return address of PO Box 1642, Northampton, NN1 9LP... Surely this is for the CCBC in Northampton, not NCP (normally a Manchester PO Box?).

 

Anyways. 1 down, 2 to go!! A small victory won. Here's to finishing the campaign and winning the battle.

NCPCancelledPCN28-01-22.pdf

[FTMDave]

Well done on seeing off one of the invoices.  Maybe another letter is in the post and has been delayed?

[FTMDave]

Just a thought here.

 

You could write to them politely and say they wrote to you re PCN A and PCN B, you replied, and they said that PCN A had been cancelled.

 

You want to know the situation with PCN B.

 

They might be stupid enough to tell you it's been cancelled too.  Surely worth a try.

[MoaningCrusader]

Yes. This is an option. I am reluctant to remind them of anything

 

I was more thinking that if they eventually decided to stupidly pursue the other PCN they would simply look ridiculous due to their complete lack of consistency or judgement should the matter make it to court.

 

I did send the exact same response to their LoC. So there's no way they can treat either PCN separately.

 

[FTMDave]

Yes, you're right.  Forget what I wrote half asleep yesterday.

 

I had got it into my head that it was just one LoC that covered two PCNs.

 

Now it's clicked that it's two different PCNs, two different LoCs.

 

You're spot on, best to let sleeping fleecers lie.

 

 

[FTMDave]

You could look on their portal however and see if it's still active  https://www.ncp.co.uk/help-centre/pcn-payment-and-appeals/

 

[dx100uk]

open

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks Dx100

I have reopened this thread, as the Fleecers (BW Legal/NCP) have just sent me another LoC for the still running PCN. I have already received LoCs for both the PCNs relevant to this thread and responded to them.

NCP saw fit to cancel one, and I then heard nothing of the other until last week when another LoC arrived. I have proof of postage that my response to the first LoC was sent to them & NCP's PCN PO Box on 19-07-22.

Do I simply respond again, with the same letter I sent almost a year ago? Or do I point out their incompetence and the fact that the other PCN has been cancelled by their 'employers'?

[FTMDave]

The obvious answer to your question is to simply send the same snotty letter again.  However, I'm thinking that if they cancelled one invoice they might cancel another.

So how about sending the same letter, but with two changes?  Firstly, change "magistrate" to "judge"  A magistrate decides criminal cases, yours is a civil case.

Secondly, just change the introduction

Re: PCN Ref *********

Dear BW Legal,

Thank you for your second rather laughable ‘Letter of Claim’ regarding the above speculative invoice sent out without consideration to the current codes of practice laid out by UK Law and your client’s own governing bodies.  If you had done any due diligence you would have also discovered that your client cancelled PCN Ref ********* concerning the same vehicle in the same location.  If one invoice was rubbish it follows that the other is too!

Invest in two 2nd class stamps tomorrow and get two free Certificates of Posting.

Edited June 8, 2023 by FTMDave
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