P2P Loan CCJ - claimant now has 3rd party order freezing my account - help

[HP Mum]

Update

The judge agreed with claimant they could have sight of tax returns, bank statements etc to ascertain my financial status.   I had to provide more info to judge and claimant by a set date.  Which i did.

 

The claimant then wrote to me separately.   But can't tell if they sent same letter to court?

 

In that letter they were querying stuff and asking for even more statements - for a year rather than the 3m they and judge had requested in court.   

 

I was only asking the judge to return a very small sum of money due to hardship  i.e. a few hundred pounds.  So I don't think claimant's objections and persistence for more info is about that small sum.   I think they fully expected the evidence to have shown links to other sources of income, investment or unexplained expenses etc which they could then go after.   Which it didn't.   

 

Claimant's lawyers are  now threatening full scope of cpr rules to allow them to check 'every aspect of my life' and if I don't comply they'll slap contempt of court on me...

 

The time and effort being invested in this doesn't make sense - for  claimant's lawyers, me or court.    It will take me weeks to collate all the info.  And I just can't be bothered.  Do I have to bother? 

 

That said, I did briefly reply to their letter.  I wanted to appear transparent and willing to a degree i.e. I answered some questions - but, the essence was really 'I complied with judge's order so why waste everyone's time when claimant has a CO on an asset?'

 

My query now is - the claimant took correspondence out of court system (their letter/my reply) so should I send this further  communication to the judge?

 

I am waiting on Judge's reply to the further evidence I sent to see if they'll agree to return the frozen money.  The Judge hasn't seen the claimant's letter requesting further disclosure or my reply. 

 

Should I bring it to their attention? 

Is the claimant lawyer likely to write to the judge and demand more info

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by dx100uk
spacing

[BazzaS]

You have “to bother”, if the judge orders it.

 

I’d take the approach that you wait until the claimant makes any such application, and then you argue that you’ve complied with the previous order, and that the claimant now asking for a years worth (rather than the 3 months of the previous order) is intended as punitive rather than informative - if they’d wanted X months worth that’s what they should have applied for at the outset rather than repeated application for more and more months worth that leave you wondering when you’ll get the next application.

 

Play towards the court’s leaning toward certainty / one hearing rather than repeated new and escalating applications over the same cause of action.

Edited February 28, 2022 by BazzaS

[dx100uk]

you should have ignored them.

its for the judge to decide not them nor you.

 

dx

[HP Mum]

Thanks both. 

 

I did 'bother' with exactly what the judge ordered.  Its just the extra info the claimant lawyers subsequently want - superfluous to their original request - that I can't be bothered with.

 

I did basically ignore them.   I just clarified some hmrc issues re pandemic grants and benefits... 

 

But you have answered my question in that it is up to the judge to decide whether my money is returned. 

 

Keeping fingers crossed.  There's such a covid backlog - apparently Judge's have to write up Orders within 19 working days but they are constantly exceeding that..

[HP Mum]

I'm still waiting for Judge to grant order on whether remaining frozen £s can be released. I provided the info by required date. Which was a long time ago now.

Long enough ago that I should have received a final order saying yes or no.

 

I'm just a bit confused on the system. I thought I'm waiting on the judge to read my evidence and then make decision?    Yet the lawyers have drafted some kind of new consent order they want me to sign.    Their own drafted consent order states that "I agree they'll allow remaining £s to be returned as long as I send extra info". 

 

I should instead chase the court for the outstanding order, yes?   

It doesn't seem right that they want to control the situation via their own drafted consent order - when I thought the decision was with the judge?

 

They threaten that if I don't send more info they may make a further court application.

Edited March 16, 2022 by HP Mum

[BazzaS]

Ignore the consent order, unless the extra hassle of the extra info is worth it to you to get the remaining £’s back sooner.

 

asking for extra info? They can make all the applications they wish, at their expense ….

 

but, as I said previously:

”

I’d take the approach that you wait until the claimant makes any such application, and then you argue that you’ve complied with the previous order, and that the claimant now asking for a years worth (rather than the 3 months of the previous order) is intended as punitive rather than informative - if they’d wanted X months worth that’s what they should have applied for at the outset rather than repeated application for more and more months worth that leave you wondering when you’ll get the next application.

 

Play towards the court’s leaning toward certainty / one hearing rather than repeated new and escalating applications over the same cause of action.”

 

However; if asked about your accounts: do include your ‘parachute account’ or it’ll look like you are trying to conceal assets

Edited March 16, 2022 by BazzaS

[HP Mum]

Thanks

The tpdo and all requested info was specifically about the account to which the tpdo related.  I wasn't asked in court to disclose info about a separate parachute account

[BazzaS]

I’ve tried to suggest how you can make it look like their repeat requests are vexatious.

 

If you haven’t told them about an account, and the judge wanted them to be able to “ascertain your financial status”

 

(You said : “The judge agreed with claimant they could have sight of tax returns, bank statements etc to ascertain my financial status.)

 

you’ll blow the “they are being vexatious” approach out of the water if they can say “we aren’t being vexatious, look, they didn’t declare an account”

 

If you haven’t got the money : no harm in showing it and not risking being seen to be hiding an account.

[HP Mum]

Thanks. Yes I understand.

The judge/ creditor ordered 3months of bank statements specifically for the account subject to the tpdo up to the time of freezing. That I did.  Plus extra info on benefits and tax returns etc.  I didn't disclose the new parachute account in different bank.  They didn't ask me to and there was only teeny amount in it. There's no debit card for it. 

 

I was owed some £s which came in after the tpdo and now sits in the parachute account. The £s will help pay some DDs for next few months.

 

I would also like to understand creditors rights over pensions though?   I've recently read legal precedent cases which state creditors can claim/ grab the 25% tax-free-lump-sum from pension funds.  But I took/ used my 25%.   Is the remaining pension fund protected?  Or vulnerable to creditors?  I would like clarity on this. 

 

Pensions are supposed to help one from retirement to death - not leave one with zero to live off.   I may need to take a small pension from Apr 6 (under personal allowance)  to help survive.  I won't take it if this creditor can claim it.

[BazzaS]

 If they now see an entry on the statement showing money going from the main account to the parachute, or if they “get a whiff of another account”, they’ll likely go back with a further application, and it won’t be seen as unreasonable.

 

Not revealing the parachute account may just drag this out longer.

 

If only a teeny amount in it, the benefit to having declared it (showing your perilous financial situation, and being seen to be open and honest) exceeds the benefit (is there any? !)  of not revealing it.

 

If there is now money in there, you are at risk of being seen to be treating some of your creditors above others, unless it is for “priority debts”, where (again) revealing it as such won’t have a downside.

Edited March 16, 2022 by BazzaS

[HP Mum]

There wasn't a transfer between the tpdo account and the parachute account

[HP Mum]

Hi

Just trying to understand what I should do next with this situation?

 

£s were grabbed via the TPDO.  I successfully got most of the £s back.  But a small amount - apx £400 - is frozen, sitting in a special TPDO account at the bank. And has been for 5 months.

 

I complied with the claimants request for further info - twice.  Twice because at the first response they weren't satisfied and asked for further clarity.   I was claiming hardship and no income and in need of the £s..   At first they just wanted 3 months info.  After complying with everything they requested, they then asked for 6 months  info.   They now said they'd only agree to cancel the TPDO if I complied with giving them 6 months info.    If I didn't comply they reserved the right to make an application to the court to ask for more info.

 

It is ridiculous situation.  I clearly proved I did not have the £s to repay the claimant (a large sum).  And clearly proved hardship.   

 

I would like to have back the frozen £s that are just sitting in the bank.  And would like the TPDO closed.   Can I write to the Judge and ask him to now make an Order to  release £s/ close the TPDO?   It doesn't seem right that this claim isn't closed.   It makes me very nervous to have an open-ended TPDO. 

Advice welcomed

[SkintBadger]

Apologies if this seems harsh, but having read around you numerous threads here on different yet similar topics, I would say you should probably just hold your hands in the air and go bankrupt! It's quite clear you a doing your best to hide assets.

 

I don't blame you! I'd do the same! However, such ducking/diving across years of threads either shows a lack of intelligence (which clearly is not true), or a way to come to terms with someone who used to live very "high on the hog" and for whatever psychological reason - be in divorce or death or bad advice, has somehow found herself not being able to live in the style she feels she's been accustomed to. 

 

I don't know you, I'm  not judging you. However, I AM fascinated by you.

 

Why don't you just go bankrupt and sit it out for 6 years. Come back strong, which you clearly are.

 

SB. 

[HP Mum]

Skintbadger - No I am not hiding any assets or £s. And No to bankruptcy either.    I'm not angry with your comment - but you are being both judgmental and fantastically speculative about a stranger.    If you have a valid response to my comment today, then great.  If not, please sssh.

 

[SkintBadger]

Apologies, I didn't mean to offend you. 

 

You post about about the same things year in year out with no resolution - so either nip it in the bud 6 years ago and you'd be free by now. There's a reason you won't/haven't done that?

 

My position is I can't expose my parents to my bad life-calls. It would kill them and crush me.

 

I can't work out from all your posts what it is you are trying to protect?

 

Doesn't matter! None of my business anyhoo! I wish you well, however something doesn't smell right - you are definitely trying to hide something, FWIW. x

 

[HP Mum]

Skintbadger  This site is very useful for a lot of people and one really should stick to being helpful and kind to others.  And refrain from personal comments - unless they are positive !

[SkintBadger]

fair enough - apologies again. Something doesn't smell right, like someone who can't be bothered to read law books and just hits up online. 

 

Been there done that!  

 

SB

[Badtimes123]

Hello HP,

 

I've tried catching up with your thread.

 

Was there ever a resolution through the courts? are you aware of ongoing/pending litigation remaining here?

 

You've been given much advice on this, and although I don't (nor anyone by the looks) have the answers you seem to want, all I can advise is that you are transparent about everything and allow this to take it's course through the courts.

 

I hope I haven't missed something obvious, just trying to help.

[HP Mum]

Badtimes - the judge gave an Order that the £s in kids account to be refunded and that the remaining £s - only apx £400 - were to remain frozen until I complied with the claimant request for more info.   

I complied as said above.  It's just that the £s haven't been returned. 

It seems a bit catch-22.  The claimant lawyer wanted even more info - which the original order didn't ask for - and unless I gave more info they wouldn't close the TPDO.   It doesn't seem correct that a claimant should hold so much power and a TPDO could remain there for years?   This is why I'm wondering if I should write to the judge and ask him to bring closure - give an Order.  I consider I did enough to show transparency and no hidden £s/ assets

[Badtimes123]

I don't see any issues with trying to get the judges attention based on what you've said regarding the ruling.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on court procedure