Parking Eye - Horse and Groom Lincoln - Charged as paying customer ***RESOLVED - CANCELLED BY PUB***

[Kyosanto]

Hi there

 

* Went to meet a friend at a pub where we had a couple of drinks. Stayed an hour. The waitress did not ask me to register my license plate.

 

* The parking said "For Patrons only" in legible letters. (There was also small print but not legible from a moving car. The small print said I have to read the T&Cs, and the T&Cs (god knows where) probably state that I have to register at the pub)

 

* Received a charge for £100 by mail. Appealed with the credit card receipt from the pub, and thought that would do it.

 

* Received a mail today that my appeal was rejected on the grounds that I should have registered my car at the pub and that signage for it was clear. However out of "Goodwill" they would reduce the charge to £20

 

* Wanted to reply to tell them to get lost, but they used a no-reply email.

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

1 Date of the infringement

3rd Oct 2021
 

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

6th Oct 2021
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

I'm posting 2 sides separately because I don't have the time to learn right now, sorry. Ex1 - FRONT  Ex2 - BACK (attached)

 

3 Date received

11th October or so
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

Yes
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Yes (I was there indeed)
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

Yes - Ex 3 ORIGINAL RESPONSE (in thread)
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

Yes - Ex 4 PEYE RESPONSE (attached)

My response to the appeal - Ex 5 (in thread)
 

7 Who is the parking company?

Parkingeye

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

The Horse and Groom, Lincoln
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

BPA

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Right so I'm in the middle of moving houses and hardly have time for this garbage. I should probably have asked for help here before replying to them in the first place, but for some obscure reason I was convinced my upload of receipts would make them go away. It didn't.

I intended to keep ignoring them but after reading a few posts here I see that the advice is not to. What I wrote is probably not good but if you can give me a few pointers whether I do need to reply further or keep ignoring them, I would be very much indebted to you (as opposed as to Parkingeye)

Then I also have the option to pay them the £20 (valid a month from now) if anyone here feels I am in the wrong here. But let's face it, I'm not and they're some disgusting money grabbers, right!   

 

...right?
 

The pub will be hearing from me for sure. They may however not be seeing me or my friends any time soon.

 

 

Ex1 FRONT.pdf Ex2_BACK.pdf Ex4_RESPONSE.pdf

Edited November 12, 2021 by Kyosanto

[Kyosanto]

Exhibit 3 - Text of my original appeal:

 

Quote

I was in the pub the whole time. Please find .jpg of bank statement attached with related transaction. I was meeting a friend there who will have separate statements and be able to corroborate.

Note that I do not appreciate the way the burden of proof was placed on me to prove I was in the pub, the waste of time to look for the receipt, and I also do not appreciate the aggressive tone of your demands.

This is no way to treat paying customers.

As I have now provided evidence that the parking charge invalid, I will enter no further correspondence on the matter and provide no reply to any possible further harassment, although I will accept a written apology.

Regards
Kyosanto

 

[dx100uk]

Sit on your hands until/unless you get a letter of claim now.

 

Dx

[Kyosanto]

Thanks dx, no need to tell them that I don't intend to pay the £20 and that they can go stuff themselves?

 

The only question that nags me is: are they really allowed to charge a paying customer who provided receipts? Surely that's madness!

[Ethel Street]

You are in the middle of moving house so the address they've got for you from DVLA is presumably the house you are moving out of? 

 

I'll see what site team colleagues suggest but it might be advisable to tell them your new address to avoid them starting court proceedings that you know nothing about because it went to your old address. Are you doing a Royal Mail Post Redirection? That might be sufficient.

 

And on a general point don't forget to tell DVLA your new address for your Diving Licence  and for your V5C car registration document. I think you have to do them separately and because of large backlogs DVLA encourage you to do it online. In case you get another PCN in future it's important your address at DVLA is up to date. 

[Kyosanto]

Yup, DVLA is part of my checklist and will do redirection (but not forever).

 

What I really would like to write is something like "you're not going to get anything out of me so wise up and don't write to me again kk?" to spare them the trouble of sending a letter of claim.

 

Also i WOULD appreciate if someone here can give me the assurance that they are confident I would win in court.

 

Because if not I can just pay up the £20 and never go to that pub ever again.

[dx100uk]

Woe slow down.

Your mistake was to appeal

Youve been here far too long to have made that silly silly mistake, likewise you do not blindly send stupid pointless letter tennis until invited to by them. Sit on your hands now.

 

By appealing youve shot yourself in the foot by volunteering you were the driver, so pofa2012 is out the window.

 

they must abide by the pre action protocol..send a letter of claim..then you ask herE about a reply.

 

baiting them is not the way to go at this stage.

 

as for winning in court...no we cant guarantee anything if it goes that far...

 

Dx

[Kyosanto]

Ahah yeah, I should have known indeed... read that countless times, but then human mind always think it's different when it happens to you. Reason I did appeal is that the letter sat unread for way too long and I had just 1 day left when I opened it (another lesson I should have learned here already was to always open your mail )

 

Just to set things straight wasn't asking for your personal guarantee. An educated opinion about whether they really have solid grounds for a claim here would be good, but I would totally settle for a "They're bloody ambulance chasers, don't pay those £20" and that will get me going on the rest of my day.

 

Thanks for your understanding

 

Ethel advised I write to them with my new address. You recommend against that then? I'm only going to redirect for around 3 months.

 

I have now sent a moany mail to the pub as well, just in case they can intercede. I believe it's probably out of their hands now but at least they can know why some of their customers won't be visiting them again.

[dx100uk]

Redirect is good enough for now.

It is rare for pe to not send a paploc and jump straight to court.

but just be aware that any court stamped comms are often not redirected as royal mail has a general rule to not do so.

 

near to the 3mts ending if no movement then yes address update needs to happen

 

lets see.

 

DX

[Kyosanto]

Update: The Horse and Groom have replied to me with a very kind and apologetic letter, and have pledged to do "everything in their power to have the fine removed". They were "not aware of the way" PE treat their customers and were "disappointed" to hear how I was made to feel, and will speak to their account manager about it.

 

Don't know if that will stop PE or not but at least it seems like further ammo in my bag.

 

We'll see if I hear back from PE or not, but at least I can probably visit the pub again once this is all done - preferably walk or taxi there next time

 

If anyone wants the correspondence with the pub let me know and I can put it up here.

 

Hope you have a good weekend all.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Kyosanto
Adjusting quotemarks to show that the misuse of the word fine is not from me :)

[dx100uk]

it is not a fine..

 

they employ PE, they can tell them what to do.

 

dx

 

[Kyosanto]

I know, that's a quote from the pub tho 

 

Lovely to hear that they have power to stop PE. Guess this one is done and dusted then. Will update if I don't hear back within a couple of months.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Kyosanto
Adding 2nd sentence

[dx100uk]

well do your job and tell them they are not fines, you cant be fined on private land...only police/courts can fine people over parking  and only on public highways etc.

 

the pub must have signed a contract with  PE to manage their parking surely unless its part of a wider UK chain and head office did it?
 

[Ethel Street]

Seems from their website that the pub is part of a small chain called Ever So Sensible Restaurants Ltd so it's possible the contract with PE has been done by the Head Office not the specific pub so the individual pub managers may have limited authority to do anything.

 

That's speculation, we don't know, but just flagging it to help you keep on top of what they are doing.

[FTMDave]

This is very promising news.  Please let us know if you get confirmation of the cancellation.

[Gick]

dx, you keep getting it wrong.Police can only issue Fixed Penalty Notices, Council can only issue Penalty Charge Notices, DVLA can only issue Penalty Notices. Only a court can fine an offender - period

[dx100uk]

i do its one of the dyslectic things..thank you once again.

sticky note for the shack wall time...

 

[lookinforinfo]

This £20 charge that PE are offering is one of the changes that the Government is going to introduce in the near future. The Government appear to be acknowledging that by the motorist not reading the T&Cs the parking company have incurred costs in establishing the situation.

 

I am surprised that PE are already doing that  but it may well be that should it ever go to Court that a Judge would take into consideration that you hadn't paid the lesser amount. Especially as perhaps by the time you arrive in Court the new legislation may be in place. 

 

I don't know what the signage is like in the car park but if the Pub manager is unable to get the PCN quashed paying the £20 may be the better option. It would end there. No letters from debt collectors and solicitors and no threat of Court action. 

 

Admittedly we haven't seen the signage but their paperwork so far appears to comply with PoFA and PE are usually pretty good at that. In addition we have had other motorists go to Court with a strong case and the Judge still finds in favour of the parking company. In which case you could be looking at payng out a couple of hundred pounds.

 

So I have to ask if it is not less hassle to lay out £20 now assuming that the Pub does not turn up trumps rather than go through perhaps several years of aggravation. Moving is stressful enough without dealing with a stream of letter from PE and debt collectors. 

 

Your choice. And of course all of us will give you best advice should you want to fight it out with them. I have no love for the parking crooks and would enjoy seeing you beat them. But there is  a risk. Usually these companies have already got the motorist involved for £100 so for an extra £70  or so if you lose in Court it is worth fighting them since there cases are often poor. As yet we don't know enough about your case to know how strong your case is.

 

No doubt not all the Site team will agree with me  and until we see the photos of the car park for instance  we cannot know the strength of their case though you have until the end of month before you need to take that decision of paying the £20 or not.

[Kyosanto]

(still waiting back to hear but in the meantime)

 

Google street has a good view of the park and the signage (I drove past today and it's still same as google street)

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2306165,-0.547747,3a,75y,120.38h,90.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB6w_voDuxaOu3BBL4G4UQg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I'm making the following observations:

• The main sign is on passenger side not driver side. The only legible bit is "Patrons Only" the rest is small print. (and the only thing it says is to refer to T&Cs)
• All the signs with the T&Cs are located behind parking spots. It doesn't seem that the signs would be very visible/accessible with a full park, like it is on Sundays.
• There are no T&S signs by the actual pub entrance

 

Am I right to conclude these almost incite the customers to fail? Surely there should be a legible REGISTRATION REQUIRED somewhere in big letters, preferably by the pub entrance or at gate?

I would have easily left my reg if I had caught on...

 

[FTMDave]

I think "Patrons Only" has been on signs outside pubs since, well, real horses stopped there.  And you were a patron.  Your comments about the signage are spot on.  The fleecers don't have a hope.

 

I agree with Ethel that the pub, albeit sympathetic, may not have the power to cancel the ticket as it would probably be the head office of the chain that signed the contract with PE.  So if you don't hear anything by the end of the day, I would get on to the head office, explain what happened, include all the comments from the pub who are on your side, and demand they call the fleecers off.

[Kyosanto]

Hello. Excellent news!

 

On Tuesday I received an email from the pub deputy manager telling me they'd cancelled the penalty, and I'd get confirmation from PE.

 

And yesterday, lo and behold, I receive an envelope with the charming DO NOT IGNORE THIS IS NOT A CIRCULAR signature catchphrase, with a written confirmation that the charge has been cancelled.

 

Have asked the mods to edit topic name. Thanks to everyone for your help. Stay safe, don't have more than a couple of drinks if you are driving, and leave your reg at the bar  

[dx100uk]

it is not a penalty

 

well done 

 

glad the CAG community could help

 

please consider hitting our donate button.

 

dx

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

Well done on your victory! 

[brassnecked]

Well done,  getting PE to cancel. that sign would not pass muster on the neaside as can't be read by the driver as they enter.

[honeybee13]

Excellent news, Kyosanto.   Does that mean you'll be going back to the pub now?

 

HB