VCS ANPR 2015 PCN claimform - Berkeley Centre Sheffield S11 8PN ***Claim Discontinued***

[anniebattlemum]

 So it's from the court and is a notice of proposed allocation to the small claims track and a questionnaire about mediation, which we'll decline, whether she wants to have witnesses etc. it has to be submitted by 15th. I don't think there are any witnesses as she has denied being the driver.

[dx100uk]

just about on every PCN claimform thread here ABM

surprised you've not seen how to respond..

 

N180 [downloadable pdf on cag]

3 copies

no to med

1 wit her

the rest is obv.

 

copy to court

copy to vcs minus email/phone/sig

1 for file

 

dx

 

 

 

[anniebattlemum]

Yes many thx for that info. Actually I didn't receive a photo of the correspondence till last night, so I was just responding to the questions about what it was and from whom. I will see my daughter next week and we'll get on with the response. Thanks again.

[ericsbrother]

On 03/08/2019 at 22:38, anniebattlemum said:

 So it's from the court and is a notice of proposed allocation to the small claims track and a questionnaire about mediation, which we'll decline, whether she wants to have witnesses etc. it has to be submitted by 15th. I don't think there are any witnesses as she has denied being the driver.

Is anyone going to cough up to being the driver? If so they may well want to be a witness. A distant relative in Spain maybe, that will ramp up the expenses claim and make it very unlikely VCS will want to start all over again to sue them.

[anniebattlemum]

EB that is a totally brilliant thought!

She does actually have immediate family in the US and South America, one of whom was prob in Middle East at the time, and other relatives in the US.

 

I'm sure they would assist, but doubtful they would have been covered by car insurance over here (unless we took out temp cover & have lost all record as the vehicle was written off anyway!!!!), also passport entries would be a problem if it got to that point & of course they wouldn't have a UK Driving licence, although short term I think other licences would be legal.

 

Would this be getting us into deep water?

I guess we're only nominating them as a witness at this point, not as the driver, so would they have to actually show up at court to state they were the driver and give VCS the opportunity to initiate another claim?

 

None of them are likely to be able to come to the UK just to attend a court appearance. 

[brassnecked]

I think VCS would drop the case when they realised how much they would end up paying out when their dodgy POC was challenged and the loss from all those costs they might have to pay due to a non UK Driver popping over to court.

[ericsbrother]

US and S America not as good as in the EU, you cant serve legal docs on them so they still have keeper liability to rely on if they got everything else right ( no chance) but it might be interesteing for a costs order though.

 

You can put the witnesses name down still if you want to run with this one. Big risk but people who live and work abroad have been awarded large sums for coming back to defend a claima nd then go and visit relatives afterwards (never before or it may be argued that was a purpose of the visit to the UK).

[anniebattlemum]

Since on the N180 it only asks for the number of witnesses (including the defendant), with no name or address, could we just include a witness and figure out who would be best at some point before the hearing?

 

At what point would VCS be advised of the location of the witness?

Would that be just before the hearing?

 

Just trying to figure out the likelihood of them withdrawing the claim for that reason and the likelihood of the witness actually having to appear.

 

By the way, the current signage at the Berkeley Precinct is in the name of Excel!!!

I'm trying to get a better image of the signage that was there in 2016, and therefore most likely 2015.

[Browntrout]

The number of witnesses is litterally there to guide the court for hearng time.

The likelyhood of vcs dropping the claim is very very low.

 

I appeciate users on this forum and others say they drop them but this is rare.

 

I would say around 1 in 50 claims discontinued where as the likes of parking eye drop around 1 in 15 cases

So expect a hearing

 

Dont forget pcns from 2015 do not comply in anyway with POFA.

I assume you have put this is your defence. 

If you have you will need to spell it out to most judges janet and john style

[anniebattlemum]

OK thanks for that tip. I'll make sure I get the detail down.

 

I've blown up the signs from the local newspaper in 2016 and they did actually have VCS name on the bottom, unlike the recent ones. That's disappointing.

 

I was thinking of writing to both the landowner and the estate agents who manage the Berkeley Precinct  site, to request info about their contract with VCS in 2015.

 

Do you think anyone would reply or disclose?

 

Is it a waste of time? 

[Gick]

Dont forget pcns from 2015 do not comply in anyway with POFA. I assume you have put this is your defence.

 

Could you please elaborate on this statement Browntrout?

[Browntrout]

Quite simply the Notice to keepers used in 2015 by vcs did not have the correct wording in order to enforce keeper liability against a non driver.  They did not comply with the provisions of POFA schedule 4

[Gick]

We all know that VCS do not get it right on their NTK's, but why quote 2015? This gives the impression that all PCN's (not just VCS) of that period  do not comply

 

Is it possible that you were confusing it with 2012 prior to the September POFA?

 

 

[Browntrout]

No i am not getting it confused at all!

There are VCS Court claims every week and there has been a swell of 2015 cases within the last 2 months

 

In 2015 VCS PCNs did not comply with POFA in any sense of the word, so it forms part of a good defence for the non driver.

 

[anniebattlemum]

Today received a very detailed and professional response in the mail from DVLA.

 

Will need to examine it closely as there may be some useful pointers, but it was VCS who requested the keeper info on 24th August 2015 and the incident took place on 12th August 2015.

I was hoping it might have been Excel!!!

[anniebattlemum]

Browntrout, it would be most helpful if you could be more specific about the way the PCN's from 2015 don't comply with POFA.

 

I need to start preparing the detailed defence to show how keeper liability is not met and have struggled with this wording.

 

I also intend to write to both the landowner and the site management company re the contract with VCS  to authorise them to charge for excess parking time in the Berkeley Precinct. (not expecting an answer!)

 

Am I right in thinking the law will recognise a contract between the driver and the site management company, if they are acting on behalf of the landowners?

[Browntrout]

Sorry for delay in replying 

You need to compare your pcn from 2015 and compare it one from this from either vcs or another operator. Then look at schedule 4 so it makes sense 

[anniebattlemum]

Is there any point in sending VCS an SAR letter  under the Data Protection Act? I've seen this mentioned on the MSE website. Is it now too late?

[dx100uk]

not really ..

they or you can only rely on documentation THEY produce in a way..

if they don't produce documentation to prove their claim nor produce docs which you have request they are pretty much stuffed.

 

in a way I can see the point of an sar say early on in the process at the letter of claim stage, but then again I also cant really see what you can do about it if they don't produce something, you'd have to got to the ICO and complaint or even raise a court claim and that would be totally sep issue and take you well outside the timelimit for the PCN claimform and be way more costly that the eventual PCN claim sum even if you lost!!...so thinking that way you might as well pay the CCJ off now, rather than waste the money IMHO.

 

there could possibly be outside chance in an SAR they might produce a document that blows the whole case wide open which they wouldn't normally disclose in a court claim nor be required too, but then again, would any PPC be stupid enough to send such in the 1st place in an sar...me doubts that seriously, they aren't that stupid!!

 

have you a court date yet?

 

 

[anniebattlemum]

No court date yet but we've had to ask for a concession that it's not December to March as my daughter is expecting another child in January and there would be the whole issue of producing and feeding the baby! Not sure how understanding they'll be though.

 

We've asked for Chesterfield, her nearest location, so maybe they'll be quieter than Sheffield & it could be sooner

- a bit worrying as I'm still frantically gathering info for the Witness statement.

 

They would have known the Berkeley Precinct location better in Sheffield, but may also be hardened by the number of claims they get. Who knows!

[anniebattlemum]

1. I read somewhere but can't remember where, that the defendant can be represented by a lay person if that person knows the case well. Since I am doing all the research, will the court have any objection to my representing my daughter, do you think? I presume she'll be required to show up at the hearing, regardless.

[FTMDave]

She will certainly have to turn up.

 

In fact it's crossed my mind a few times that although you're doing all this magnificent work, your daughter will have to make some time sooner or later to understand the case.  A lay person can represent her but she will have to give evidence and rebut the fleecers' arguments.

 

I'm not being flippant, i remember how difficult it was bringing my son up most of the time on my own!!!  But there's no way out of it.

 

I'm not an expert on lay reps - but others on the site are and will be on soon.

[anniebattlemum]

Thx for understanding.

 

I believe the defendant can, and should, challenge the claimant's representative's right of audience (Ellis v. Larson 2016) under para 1(7) Schedule 3 Legal Services Act 2007.

 

In this case, the advocate did not fulfil the criteria required for rights of audience, even though the hearing was in private/chambers. I'm still not exactly sure how qualified the claimant's advocate needs to be to have right of audience, but I guess that's a matter for the judge to decide.

 

I'd really appreciate guidance on lay representation for the defendant though and that could help a lot of others I should think.

[anniebattlemum]

Well now I'm reading Practice Direction 27 for small claims cases and it says under section 3.2 re representation at a hearing, that "a party may present his own case at a hearing or  a lawyer or lay representative may present it for him".

 

However under the Lay Representatives (Right of Audience) Order 1999 a lay representative can't advocate if the client doesn't attend.

 

It also says that any of its officers or employees may represent a corporate party (VCS?)

- that's not what I understood from the above case?

 

This is on the justice.gov website so surely must be uptodate??

The law is very confusing!!

[dx100uk]

RE: VCS they can but they cant refer to the contents of the WS.

only the person that wrote it can.