Made Bankrupt - how to overturn it?

[seylectric]

Hi,

 

The appeal is on the 7th Feb.

 

We have both been rather unwell over the past few weeks, more tiredness myself from having too much to deal with in too little time, my partner is recovering from a minor op.

 

As such I've only just got my act into gear regarding getting the paperwork to the new solicitor. The old solicitor is a bit baffled that I have not been answering her calls but i wanted to be sure we had the new guy in house before I effectively "sacked" her; I didn't want her phoning the officical receiver and giving him the impression that we weren't fighting it any more (in which case he would have appointed a trustee immediately, which will cost us thousands more).

 

Remember her idea was that we had no chance of getting the bankrupcy overturned and our only hope was to get it annulled by remortgaging and paying the debts (and fees) off. Her fee was 4.5k + VAT but the final straw was that the company she got to arrange a remorgage wanted another 3.5k + VAT - to arrange a mortgage?????

 

Apparently the O.R. is going to appoint a trustee immediately if our appeal fails, but having only just sent the paperwork to our new solicitor, we haven't had the chance to discuss it further. I have asked Incasso for all the case files but got nothing; they were very quick to send a defence to our appeal in though!!!

 

I have also asked the council for all documentation relating to our case but they just keep telling me to contact Incasso. I have asked them several times how I fulfil my obligation to pay my council tax as I am jointly liable but they just keep pointing me towards Incasso and the OR. I have pointed out on several occasions that regardless of any action they have taken against my partner, I still have my own obligation to pay my council tax and they are effectively still refusing to allow me to do so! I have now written them a letter asking them to release me of all future obligations from the account since they are effectively refusing to let me pay it and placing me in an untenable situation (regardless of the position with my partner); they refer me to Incasso, Incasso refuse to discuss because my name is not on the bankrupcy documents. I have therefore requested that as they are refusing to let me pay it, the bill is declared null and void.

 

I would love some further advice as to whether or not I still have an obligation to pay when my offers of payment have been repeatedly refused. Admittedly this is a little game I'm playing with the council but if I could argue this point legally, that the debt be wiped out because they are refusing to accept my payment (remember I haven't been made bankrupt and I still have a council tax bill to pay with my name on it!) then surely it adds another angle - the council refuse to accept my payment so they surely must either release me from my obligation to pay OR wipe out the debt completely, in which case that would give my partner sufficient reason to have her bankrupcy annuled on the basis that the debt does not exist! Any takers on this?

 

 

Sorry, a lot to catch up on but our case I think is quite strong:

 

Statement by the server:

 

1. Terraced house (it's a semi)

2. Spoke to a 55 year old man at the house (nobody at our house meets that description and because of constant bailiff visists we NEVER answer the door unless we know who the caller is, we can see through the bay window)

3. Spoke to elderly neighbour who confirmed my partner (full name) lived there. Neighbour states that she doesn't recall speaking to anyone and doesn't know my partner's surname).

4. Heard the TV on. (TV is in the rear lounge, no way you can hear it from the front door, no access to the rear of the house).

5. Saw the lights on at 7.30 on 23rd June. (Lights on? Middle of summer at 7.30?)

6. Incasso claims to have made "every reasonable effort" to serve papers before asking for substituted service but as far as I can tell the server only called once prior to pushing papers through letterbox (allegedly)

 

Sorry, I'm on a roll.....

 

7. Letter to council back in May (which I had forgotten about) asking them how much we owed so we could settle up. no reply, a month later I phoned up and was told they couldn't accept payment as it had "gone too far" (first payment offer refusal) but said their solicitors (Incasso) would be in touch. The council didn't say at the time who their solicitors were so we had no means of contacting them.

 

The first correspondence we got from Incasso was two weeks or so after the bankrupcy hearing!

 

8. Application for a secured consolidation loan for £10k a few months ago, loan granted but we didn't take it up because we hadn't heard anything back from the council about our offer of payment in full. We didn't see the point of paying interest on a loan which was partly to pay off the council when they refused to accept our payment.

 

Unfotunately I have long since binned the loan paperwork and have just written to the loan company in the hope that they can confirm that we were granted the funds which would have enabled us to pay prior to the bankrupcy hearing. Not holding out too many hopes of a reply before the appeal though.

 

A few more points too, but I think we have enough there to put the original judgement into question, I just wish I had more time to deal with it. I think, from the few short phone conversations I have had with him, we have a decent solicitor on the case though who really does give the impression he wants to nail this rather than just take the money and get his secretary to type out a few letters.

 

I hope I'm right, but he is the first solicitor I have ever known that phones YOU, out of hours too, rather than you having to chase them all the time.

 

Judges can be strange creatures so we'll see, watch this space!

 

Sorry about the long post, trust me this is the edited version!

 

Oh, and thank you for your concern, very much appreciated.

[Seminole]

Their refusal to accept payment from you is extraordinary. You should consider approaching your local councillor or MP. Alternatively you could start the ball rolling with a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman (tell the Council that you're doing this).

 

This whole story stinks of a bureaucratic vendetta.

[seylectric]

Yes, I want to do all that and more, only trouble is I'm struggling to get through the paperwork I need to do as it is. RBS owe me over £800 but have not yet got around to following up my claim (which of course they rejected).

 

I won't be taking no for an answer at the appeal that's for sure, we lose this and all hell is going to break loose.

[bottomburp]

deleted

[Seminole]

If you need a hand putting together a complaint to the Ombudsman just shout. I was a councillor for 8 years and I know how to word these things to have maximum impact.

[Guest Zooman]

Seylectric I'm so sorry I've just seen this, I presently working on 2 annulments (I mention this for you know I have an idea of it), if you would like an informal chat I will send my phone number. I can under no circumstances give legal advice but I will answer any questions you may have about protocol or the OR.

 

 

I'm so sorry to hear about all this.

[Guest Zooman]

saddly everything I have read here makes prefect sense, I hate insolvency.

[Movingon]

Zoo - this is the one I was trying to recall the other night mate; too much beer I guess.

 

Sey - I hope to hear great news from you after the hearing; here's to ya mate!

[bottomburp]

How did it go Seylectric?

[seylectric]

Hi all,

 

We have asked for an adjournment to allow the solicitor to go through the paperwork properly and get replies from the council/Incasso.

 

However having read through everything he seems to feel that we are now less likely to get an annulment mainly on the basis that the judge is going to say that we still owe the money and will want to know if we are in a position to pay it. I'm going to argue that whether we owe the money or not is irrelevant, the point is that proper procedures were not followed.

 

The irony is that we could have possibly just scraped the 4k owing but much of that is now being taken up in legal fees.

 

To be honest, the O.R. has been fairly reasonable, and hasn't published the bankruptcy yet, it's the council I hold the grudge against. I will be sending letters to them stating that I hold them responsible for the fees I am having to pay on my partner's behalf because they refuse to accept my payment, I am claiming that the case is between my partner and themselves and as such should not affect me in any way.

 

Going off at a tangent slightly, here is a good example of how the legal system has turned into complete farce in this country: Last Friday I went to Fleetwood court to defend a "Failing to name the driver" charge. Again I never received any documents relating to the initial speeding charge and the documents relating to the first hearing in June 2006 went to the wrong address. I knew nothing about it until I had to go to court in October to explain why I had not paid the fine and I had to go and ask "What fine???"

 

I explained to the judge I had received no documents and the fine was overturned.

 

The police then summoned me BACK to court on 3rd January. Unbelievably the summons for THAT hearing went to the wrong address (it was actually wrong on the summons AND on the envelope, no. 61 instead of no. 64, wrong postcode too. That was adjourned until last Friday because I pleaded not guilty.

 

I pointed out having now received copies of the original speeding ticket (speed camera, my car, correct address on ticket), June 2005 (YES 2005!!!), and copies of the original summons for Failing to name the driver (dated Jan 2006 but hearing was not until June 2006), it would have been impossible 12 months on to name the driver even if I had received the original documents.

 

The judge didn't believe I hadn't received the original speeding ticket (what's that got to do with it? The case was for Failing to name the driver, not for the original speeding offence), found me guilty and fined me £150 + £60 costs. I'm bloody fuming - £210 + 3 points for not being able to name the driver when my car was flashed for speeding over 18 months ago?

 

£210 for a "crime" with no victim, no accident, and orginating from a speeding offence that because that issue had never been to court, was not even proven! This concocted law is a disgrace, right to silence taken away and fined for well what exactly?

 

Seven days to pay, that's up tomorrow and I only got the paperwork today. What is even more ludicrous is the enclosed "Notice of requirement to produce driving licence" which states that "Your driving licence was suspended and is of no effect until it is produced to me." Huh? Why, since I have seven days to produce? Total farce, my point being this is just the soprt of thing we are up against.

[fbnts]

Wow! I have just spent the last hour or so reading this thread and I must say, this just shows the whole mess our system are in!

 

From my own experience, Councils are the worst & most dirty players of them all. I'm in the middle of an appeal that the council has liability orders aginst me for a property that I believe was leased in a company name and not mine personally but they are complete arses-they only care that they have someone to hold liable, whether its correct or not, they are not bothered.

 

Just hang in there, although I am in no was up on law, there are plenty of loopholes in the whole case and, like me, you appear to be fighting this on the moral grounds. I could just roll over and finish paying the last liability order (over £3k paid already) but its the principle and the fact that they are wrong and have made my life hell over the past 4 years.

 

Go get em!

 

Tom

[seylectric]

Thanks, Tom.

 

The Official Receiver's fees are apparently up to £550 already. For what, exactly? I will be asking for a breakdown of the costs!

 

What makes me really bitter is I am having to shell out thousands of pounds that I don't have because of the bankruptcy procedure.

 

The council have incurred this expense on us because they want their money, yet at the same time are refusing to accept my repeated offer of payment!

 

You couldn't make it up. Sadly, you don't have to.

[bottomburp]

Good luck Sey, and please let us know when the next hearing is. bb

[JonCris]

seylectric when you say judge do you mean magistrate?

[Movingon]

seylectric when you say judge do you mean magistrate?

 

Why Magistrate? Is this a criminal matter?

[JonCris]

Speeding, or in the alternative not complying with a NIP are criminal offences & are usualy dealt with in a Magistrates Court........unless you or the prosecution elect to go to a higher court

[seylectric]

Yes, it was a magistrates court. I was just generalising given that the "speeding" post wasn't really a discussion about that case, just my way of pointing out that this is the sort of thing we are up against when fighting the authorities on any level.

 

It's not a fair fight (even if you're innocent), you never get a rational explanation of anything, you are simply told that they do this (whatever the issue is) because the law says they can, hence that makes it Ok because it's legally correct.

 

You can apply this to bankrupcy, speeding fines, parking tickets, you name it.

[JonCris]

I don't know your exact situation but it sounds like you may have grounds to appeal using legal funding......if your on benefits or are on a low income.......Its not for you to prove you didn't get the NIP but for them to prove you did.....it's called 'the evidence being beyond a reasonable doubt' a fact which some magistrates appear to have lost sight of..............They seem to think that it is a personal affront to them that a motorist should get off on (as they see it) a technicalty.....which of course it isn't........Many mags have little understanding of the law

[Movingon]

Ahhh - we're talking about speeding - LOL I assumed we were still talking about bankruptcy

[countrybake]

just subscribing best of luck, CB

[seylectric]

Many thanks all, your support is worth it's weight in gold.

 

Nothing much to tell, we have been given a revised appeal date but don't know what it is yet.

[JonCris]

Again best of luck......It's disgraceful how some councils behave in the sure knowledge that as social entities operating with public money the courts will overlook such behaviour

[Cornucopia]

Just subscribing. What a shocking story. Good luck x

[joesoap]

I just picked this thread today couldn't stop reading. Good luck with your quest, your lass doesn't want to be made bankrupt, it seems to hang round the neck like a noose. Wor lass was made bankrupt on 28/2/2001 and discharged 28/2/2004 and has now fallen off the the credit file because of the six year rule. However, we seemed to cope better then. Beacuse my eldest son is getting married VERY shortly we tried to raise extra funds; there's no chance. Although we managed to keep our property (the OR could pounce though) there is a Caution shown at the land registry. I tried to borrow £3000 off my mortgage company but because of the caution the second word was off. It seems to me that criminals who come out of jail are treated better than honest citizens who lost all their money because of a business failure. Bankrupts will never really have a "clean sheet". Sorry to go on but I realise that many ex bankrupts end up doing well but personally, I think it is something to avoid. Your lass does not want to go down this road. Again, best of luck but the system is sh*t.

[Guest Zooman]

joesoap, you need to read this http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/22342-bankruptcy-protracted-realisation-unit.html