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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Company closed, will I get my redundancy?


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Hi all

 

Someone has just told me about this site and said it's the best place for advice

I wonder if anyone can help me please

 

The company I last worked at have just started liquidation proceedings. I was made redundant a month before this happened and so I have only received 1 months pay in lieu

My query is I've received a P45 from them but the pay to date figure states 2 months pay

They say their accountants said it's right as it's what I've earned - but I never received it and now I have to wait to see if there's any money to pay creditors who are beneficial into the continuity of the running of the business before I will get anything

Is this right?

 

Update

 

I had a tribunal of which it was found in my favour and the company ordered to pay me redundancy however, the company is now in liquidation... BUT

 

I was told that my P45 figure states what I would have earned up until the end of May. I was also told unoffically by the ops manager that the new owner was paying staffs wages for May although under the old company.

I have today been sent a pay slip of mine for the month of May that I never received the payment for!

 

Surely this proves that the company director was acting dishonestly and the new owner who paid every one elses wages should have paid mine as well?

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The liability for the payment will have passed over to the new company unless companies house decide thst the directors are personally liable for the debts (rare)

 

That's not likely to be correct unless the "new owner" that Fringer refers to has bought the actual company OP worked for by acquiring its share capital. That seems highly unlikely given that it was already in liquidation. More likely the so-called "new owners" have bought premises and assets from the liquidator and either absorbed it into their existing company or created a new one. In which case the "new owner" is not liable for the payment of unpaid wages by the company that is now in liquidation. That liability remains with the liquidators but only insofar as there are sufficient funds to pay the wages (+ of course what is payable under the government scheme linked to earlier).

 

BTW Companies House has no power to decide if a director is personally liable in insolvency. That's a matter for the courts.

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Is it worth me getting a solicitor?

 

I sent a message to the ops manager recently as she has now left the company and we were supposed to be friends.

She got nasty with me and said I wasn't entitled to the pay as I should have been sacked for poor performance!

Never once was I spoken to about poor performance in the 2 years I was there.

I did refuse to have anything to do with the directors false invoicing and wrote that in a letter before I left.

The fact he was changing invoices figures and then uploading them to the wrong account with the factoring company in order to get a draw down.

I think by her putting that in a text to me they're gonna try and blame me for it as they have a case on going with a huge company they had over and owe 150k to

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Is it worth me getting a solicitor?

 

I sent a message to the ops manager recently as she has now left the company and we were supposed to be friends.

She got nasty with me and said I wasn't entitled to the pay as I should have been sacked for poor performance!

Never once was I spoken to about poor performance in the 2 years I was there.

 

Doesn't matter what SHOULD have happened - the facts relate to what ACTUALLY happened and you have proof of the amount that was due to you. Copies of bank statements (providing that this was the usual route for salary payments) would also show that what was paid differed from the amount stated?

 

A solicitor may well charge more than you are due but there would probably be no harm in getting a free consultation if you can - just to outline your options

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This is what I thought.

Still if the company is in liquidation, I still won't get any money will I? Even though I have proof the ops manager said the new owner was paying the wages for the month they were supposed to pay me for

Can I go after the new owner?

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If you can get a free consultation with a solicitor you could ask. Probably the answer will be that you are a creditor and will have to wait and see that the liquidators eventually pay out. I think employees with unpaid wages rank as priority creditors but I haven't been able to check whether ex-employees redundancy pay also has priority. So you might (eventually) get most of it back. Might be worth asking the liquidator how things stand. Is the ops manager now working for the 'new owner'? If not it's really irrelevant what she said as she isn't a manager or officer of the new company and presumably has no authority to make commitments of their behalf. In any case sounds like she said the new owner was paying current employees - presumably to retain them in the business - and you had left a month before the liquidation.

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She was working for them until 2 weeks ago.

It was while she was still there I text her to ask if the Director was going to have me over and she said the new owner was paying staff from his company even though the paperwork hadn't gone through for the liquidation.

 

When I was offered redundancy I asked for a lump sum but was told the company had no money so I would have to be paid monthly as a wage

I then received the first month's pay, nothing the 2nd month then all of a sudden I received a P45 stating I'd left

The P45 year to date figure stated I'd received 2 months pay in that year but I had only received the one. It is only now I've discovered that the payroll was actually run for me they just never paid me.

I emailed and asked where the 2nd month's money was and she told me that was the figure I'd earned, not necessarily what I was to be paid!

 

The owner was so dodgy, one time he paid someone a penny saying he didn't have enough to pay out and the bloke was loaded and wouldn't notice.

 

He thinks I'm just going to walk away but he's also stolen our pension contributions. He was reported every month for non payment of pensions yet they were still being stopped from our wages.

 

It makes my blood boil to think he just walks away Scott free

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  • 4 weeks later...
If you can get a free consultation with a solicitor you could ask. Probably the answer will be that you are a creditor and will have to wait and see that the liquidators eventually pay out. I think employees with unpaid wages rank as priority creditors but I haven't been able to check whether ex-employees redundancy pay also has priority. So you might (eventually) get most of it back. Might be worth asking the liquidator how things stand. Is the ops manager now working for the 'new owner'? If not it's really irrelevant what she said as she isn't a manager or officer of the new company and presumably has no authority to make commitments of their behalf. In any case sounds like she said the new owner was paying current employees - presumably to retain them in the business - and you had left a month before the liquidation.

 

Can I just check, you said employees with unpaid wages are priority -

I have since been sent a payslip for the 2nd month of my redundancy (of which I never received the payment) which explains why my P45 figure is wrong

 

The liquidator has told HMRC that I left the post in March even though my redundancy was supposed to be until the end of June - now the redundancy service are asking me for money back as they paid me 1 week redundancy

 

The liquidator is insisting that my employment ended the day I walked out and is also saying that they are unable to make payment to me as it constitutes a preference payment. Surely though if my payroll was run for the month of May and I never received the money, this constitutes stealing??

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Can I just check, you said employees with unpaid wages are priority -

I have since been sent a payslip for the 2nd month of my redundancy (of which I never received the payment) which explains why my P45 figure is wrong

 

The liquidator has told HMRC that I left the post in March even though my redundancy was supposed to be until the end of June - now the redundancy service are asking me for money back as they paid me 1 week redundancy

 

The liquidator is insisting that my employment ended the day I walked out and is also saying that they are unable to make payment to me as it constitutes a preference payment. Surely though if my payroll was run for the month of May and I never received the money, this constitutes stealing??

 

This goes back to the point I made to you originally

 

If these are payments in lieu of notice your employment ended before the liquidation and therefore you don't qualify for RPS payments or protections

 

And sorry but my iPad seems to be having a spat with the site and won't post properly! The point being that if you were not actually an employee at the point of liquidation then the money you are owed isn't any of their concern And nor are you a preferred creditor because you aren't an employee at the point of liquidation Payment in lieu terminates your employment with immediate effect and so you can't count your period of employment to the end of the supposed notice period

 

I am unclear here too about your comment that you walked out?

 

And sorry again but my iPad had decided it doesn't like to post full stops or commas!!! Don't you just love technology???

Edited by sangie5952
Paras
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Thanks for answering

 

I think I am probably using the wrong term

 

I was offered redundancy and given 3 months notice the letter I received was dated 8th March.

I was told I would be paid at the end of each month taking my employment up to the end of June.

The company was keen to let me leave early as the director was fraudulent and enjoyed making my work day awkward by watching everything I done in case I gathered evidence against him so they agreed to let me leave on 10th March.

 

I received pay at the end of March..I then received pay at the end of April.

On the 17th May I was told.by another employee that they had even told the company would now be known as a different name.

 

I asked the director and ops manager what this would mean with regard to my pay and was told nothing. I would still be paid.

 

I never received any further payments.

I then received a P45 with a leaving date of 18th May and a gross pay figure showing 2 months pay (April and May)

I hadn't received any payment for May.

 

They P45 date got changed to 31st May eventually but the figure stayed the same with the ops manager saying it is what I would've earned not what I had received.

 

The ops manager text me to tell me that the new owner was paying the old company's wages for May.

I still never received any money.

I took both the company I worked for and the new company to tribunal and it was found in my favour against the company I had worked for but not the new company as I had never worked for them.

 

I had received a weeks redundancy from HMRC and now they are saying that the liquidator have told them I left on 10th March therefore I have been overpaid and they want money back.

 

The liquidator insists my employment ended on 10th March and says I cannot get and preference payment I am owed even though the court says I am owed 2 months pay.

 

Sorry for the long story

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I think you are comparing apples and pears and thinking they are the same thing!

 

The Redundancy Payments Service is not in a position to judge who is telling the truth. That is for a court of law. Nor, at this moment in time, is anything a tribunal decided a matter of concern for them. And whether your former employer is a crook or not is simply muddying the waters, because neither the RPS nor the tribunal care about that.

 

The RPS has been informed, by the insolvency practitioner, of your final days of employment. They cannot dispute that. They cannot take your word for it. The insolvency practitioner is independent- they have no interest in lying to you or to the RPS. The IP may be operating on incorrect information, but that information is what they have available too them, and they can't change it. According to the information they have, you have been overpaid and they need you to repay that money.

 

Quite separately from that, it appears that you have gone to a tribunal to get a ruling on the money you alleged was owed to you. It is up to you, not the RPS, to enforce that judgement. The fact that the company is liquidated is irrelevant to that - if you cannot enforce the judgement then you will have to reapply to the tribunal, and then you may get some of that money from the RPS.

 

The risk here is that the tribunal service will agree that your date of termination is the one being used by the RPS and the IP, unless you can actually evidence that you remained in employment until the later date, despite the evidence of the IP and RPS. The fact that a tribunal had already agreed that you are owed money is irrelevant- that decision does not necessarily mean they have judged what your termination date was, only that you were owed money. And you cannot now ask them to judge that matter because your claim would be out of time. So unless you have an actual ruling that states unequivocally that your termination date was the later date, there isn't anywhere at all that this can now go - all the evidence is that it is the earlier date and it is too late to dispute that. Even if you did, it might be an empty victory, as that wouldn't necessarily mean you'd get the money either!

 

At this stage, I really think you need to consider your position - is the effort to continue this worth it? And you probably do need legal advice if you decide to continue to fight, because this had strayed into grey areas of responsibility and law, and whether there is anything to win or not cannot be judged easily. Unfortunately, you might get a free 30 minutes initially, but I doubt that will be enough to advise you. So it may well cost you something to get the advice you need - and that is also part of that balanced judgement you need to make about whether, a year later, the time and effort and potential cost is worth the return. Quite apart from anything else, it comes across strongly that you are very angry about this. I don't blame you for being angry either. But the cost to your blood pressure can't be small - a years worth of anger is unhealthy. It may be time to set this down and accept that it happened and move on. But only you can decide that.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Quite separately from that, it appears that you have gone to a tribunal to get a ruling on the money you alleged was owed to you. It is up to you, not the RPS, to enforce that judgement. The fact that the company is liquidated is irrelevant to that - if you cannot enforce the judgement then you will have to reapply to the tribunal, and then you may get some of that money from the RPS.

 

Hi

Thank you for your answer. It really has helped and yes, I think you are right. I need to leave this alone now where the liquidators are concerned

 

I note your comment up there about it is up to me to enforce the judgement. Do you mean me go after him for the money?? How do I do that?

 

You're right, I am so angry about this and the fact he has done it time and time again with no consideration for the upset or hardship he causes. He is now claiming he is the director of the new company and is running up more bills left right and centre.

 

:-x

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I'm sorry, but this happens so often, there's even a term for it. "Pheonixing". Creating a new company from the ashes of another, and leaving everyone burned!

 

The problem is that enforcement is at a cost - effectively you must either take further legal action or send in HCOs ("the bailiffs"). And until yippy have attempted enforcement you can't go back to the tribunal. But you also won't ever see the money that action costs back. Which is why most people give up at this stage.

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  • 4 weeks later...
I'm sorry, but this happens so often, there's even a term for it. "Pheonixing". Creating a new company from the ashes of another, and leaving everyone burned!

 

The problem is that enforcement is at a cost - effectively you must either take further legal action or send in HCOs ("the bailiffs"). And until yippy have attempted enforcement you can't go back to the tribunal. But you also won't ever see the money that action costs back. Which is why most people give up at this stage.

 

Thanks for your answer - sorry I have only just seen it.

 

I done what I said I would do, and left it.... But then...

 

I have now been contacted by the Insolvency Service of HMRC to say that the 1 weeks redundancy I received has been overpaid.

 

The liquidator gave my leaving date of 10th March 2017 (which is the day I left my post)

 

The Director told me I was free to leave as it was uncomfortable for me to stay and they knew I had another job to go to which was starting on 13th April 2017.

 

Once I'd left I received a months pay at the end of March for March wages

I then received months pay at the end of April for April wages (notice pay)

 

I never received any further payments or wage slips

On the 1st June I received a P45 giving my leaving date as 31st May and the gross to pay date showed I had been paid for both April and May

 

I am now being told that as the liquidator gave my leaving date as 10th March I am to pay back half of the 1 week redundancy I received.

 

I have contacted a solicitor about it who has taken a few days to come back to me to say I need to speak to HMRC which I have done.

HMRC told me I need to speak to the liquidator, which I have done. All he keeps saying is I left on 10th March.

 

This is absolutely doing my head in now!!!! :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

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Ah. Skipping back over some earlier posts I think they are probably right. You said you had three weeks redundancy pay for just over two years service? That should have been two weeks redundancy pay, not three. Plus, and you so won't want to hear this, I'm not now sure you were entitled to any! Your STATUTORY notice was only two weeks. You had a new job already, more than two weeks from your "end date" date, which is June, not March. As a result, you weren't entitled to redundancy pay in law. I think you'll have to repay it. I don't think this is one you can win, because any way I view it, I don't see you entitled to statutory redundancy pay at all. Sorry.

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Ah. Skipping back over some earlier posts I think they are probably right. You said you had three weeks redundancy pay for just over two years service? That should have been two weeks redundancy pay, not three. Plus, and you so won't want to hear this, I'm not now sure you were entitled to any! Your STATUTORY notice was only two weeks. You had a new job already, more than two weeks from your "end date" date, which is June, not March. As a result, you weren't entitled to redundancy pay in law. I think you'll have to repay it. I don't think this is one you can win, because any way I view it, I don't see you entitled to statutory redundancy pay at all. Sorry.

 

Thanks for replying. I just want it over with tbh.

 

I know over the post I've used the wrong wording a lot of the time cos I was so confused about it all.

 

I was told by the company to apply for redundancy from the insolvency service. I gave them all of the information and was awarded the statutory 1 week's pay. Was about £400 I think if I remember.

 

The company was supposed to pay me 3 month's notice. Not redundancy. 3 month's notice plus 3 weeks as per our agreement.

 

I still need to find out how to get my P45 amended as the figure is wrong therefore my tax has been wrong

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That's clear now. Yes, they are correct.

 

For you, and for anyone else reading this, redundancy pay is not an absolute right. It is compensation for being out of work (or that was its original intention in law), not a termination payment or a gift. Not saying you thought it was, but a lot of people do think that!

 

The entitlement to redundancy pay is calculated on statutory notice, not contractual notice. Anyone who obtains another job before their statutory notice period does not qualify for redundancy payments. The employer can choose to make payments, but they don't legally have to.

 

And before anyone else asks, because I've come across this one all too often, getting a job and deliberately keeping it quiet to get your redundancy payment is fraud! At best, if the employer ever find out, they can come after you for the money. But they could sue you for fraud too. So please, don't anyone do it! If you are facing losing your job and you are lucky enough to get another one, be thankful for small mercies that you'll not have to worry about where the money to pay bills is coming from - that's worth much more than any redundancy package.

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Ok thanks for clearing that up - so I do have to pay back the £180 or so they're asking for from the Insolvency service.

Crap but ok - I get it. At least that clears that up

 

As for the P45 though? Any ideas?

 

I did get sent a payslip that was generated for me for the month of May by the accountants who took over payroll after I left. They did obviously mean for the company to pay me but they didn't.

I know I'll never get that money.

How do I get the P45 information changed as I'm now being taxed a higher rate as HMRC think I received more than I actually did

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Sorry but not a clue on the P45. Tax stuff confuses the hell out of me!

 

I contacted a solicitor who said they are employment specialists.

I've had an email back saying they cannot help me and I should contact citizens advice?

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I thought citizens advice were just volunteers who look up law and info from books?

 

 

 

 

"just"??

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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