Article 50 Discussion

[Guest]

makes sense for tescut.

 

a link from another thread

'Chemicals giant Ineos has been accused of exploiting Brexit ('to relax climate change laws') to pressure ministers to get rid of environmental legislation.

The revelations come from a cache of documents obtained by Friends of the Earth under Freedom of Information laws...'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a7665136.html

[tobyjugg2]

Scotland Would Be ‘Most Welcome’ As Full EU Member, 50 MEPs Say

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/scotland-would-be-most-welcome-as-full-eu-member-50-meps-say_uk_58e9fddfe4b00de14103ffd3?utm_hp_ref=uk

 

“Therefore, if Scotland were to become an independent country and decided to seek to maintain European Union membership, we offer our full support to ensure the transition is as swift, smooth, and orderly as possible.

 

NOTE the 'maintain' part

 

Stephen Gethins MP, the SNP’s Europe spokesman, said:

“In a week in which the idea of Spain vetoing an independent Scotland’s EU membership was finally put to bed, and the man who wrote Article 50 said that Scotland would see ‘a very swift accession negotiation’, it’s clear that the claims made by the No campaign in 2014 are being steadily demolished."

 

A UK government really needs a war again doesn't it?

[tobyjugg2]

A UK government really needs a war again doesn't it?

 

 

It would seem May must think 'not quite there yet' as she cancelled Boris Gobsheyte-Johnson's visit to the Kremlin

 

So that prevented the war for now,

but sadly that also means we wont see Boris' glowing personality when he'd have got off the plane in the dark at Heathrow setting off all the radiation detectors after his gob started ww3

 

Must have been a really difficult decision for May.

[obiter dictum]

"DAFT, buffoon, and poodle" were just some of the terms being used to describe Boris Johnson yesterday, after he gave in to American demands to cancel a meeting with his Russian counterpart.

 

LibDem leader Tim Farron said it was clear America saw Johnson as a “buffoon” and diplomatic liability.

 

Alex Salmond claimed Johnson shirking his responsibilities made the Tory look like “some sort of mini-me” who cannot be trusted.

 

Even the Kremlin were embarrassed for Johnson, and said it showed the UK had “no real influence.”

[tobyjugg2]

"DAFT, buffoon, and poodle" were just some of the terms being used to describe Boris Johnson yesterday, after he gave in to American demands to cancel a meeting with his Russian counterpart.

 

LibDem leader Tim Farron said it was clear America saw Johnson as a “buffoon” and diplomatic liability.

 

Alex Salmond claimed Johnson shirking his responsibilities made the Tory look like “some sort of mini-me” who cannot be trusted.

 

Even the Kremlin were embarrassed for Johnson, and said it showed the UK had “no real influence.”

 

I think the yanks were just afraid that Johnson and Farage would bring back a UK - Russia Brexit trade deal which made us partners with Russia.

 

After all they are our nearest large potential and willing trade partner now and we need a powerful ally we could rely on.

We never could rely on France (betrayed them too often) or the US (never quite lapdog enough for them) and we turned our backs on Canada and Australia - the US's more important (and more respected) partners now.

[obiter dictum]

And any Trade Deal with Trump will be nothing more than TTIP UK, but unlike the EU, Mayssolini will accept the trade deal

[unclebulgaria67]

And any Trade Deal with Trump will be nothing more than TTIP UK, but unlike the EU, Mayssolini will accept the trade deal

 

Any US/UK trade deal will be totally one sided in favour of the US. We saw this with extradition arrangements, where UK residents can be arrested and taken to the US, but US authorities would now allow US residents to be extradited to the UK.

 

You wait and see what Wall Street and the US Federal Reserve will demand of UK Financial Services companies. The vested interests in the City of London won't accept it and put pressure on UK Goverment not to agree a deal. Therefore there won't be a comprehensive trade deal, but a trade deal limited in scope probably to Defence Procurement and a few other areas such as Scientific research.

[tobyjugg2]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/11/g7-rejects-uk-call-for-sanctions-against-russia-and-syria

 

G7 rejects UK call for sanctions against Russia and Syria

 

Other than Boris Johnson foreign ministers say inquiry into chemical weapons attack is needed before new measures adopted

 

 

and some related but perhaps Fake? news:

 

US's UK puppy sent to kennel with its tail between its legs

May reportedly laughing socks off

Trump blows off more wind

Tillerson says 'Baad dog. You better get it right with our trade deal offer'

[tobyjugg2]

EU addresses potentially toxic UK bank moves to EU

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-banks-regulations-idUKKBN17D26W

[tobyjugg2]

The shape of things to come in US aligned Brexit Britain

 

Bet against environmentally friendlier bio fuels and for oil - when you know you will be advising on regulating them

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biofuels-icahn-exclusive-idUKKBN17E0D6

Billionaire investor Carl Icahn's oil refining company, CVR Energy, made a massive bet in 2016 that prices for U.S. government biofuels credits would fall - just before Icahn started advising President Donald Trump on regulations driving that market.

 

 

Get rid of regulations that prevent banks cheating the world

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-business-idUKKBN17D1ZD

 

Trump's message to bankers: Wall Street reform rules may be eliminated

 

 

 

 

Reduce tax on tax avoiding companies

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/12/trump-tax-holiday-us-companies-apple-oxfam-tax

Trump’s tax holiday 'would help top US companies save $300bn'

 

.. rather than prosecute them

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and here it is alreay happening

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-barclays-investigation-idUKKBN17C0IK

Barclays boss says it was an 'honest mistake' to hire pribate investigators and contact US officials trying to get whistleblowers name despite it being a corporate board level directive,

While investigations still ongoing into Libor manipulation and other criminal activities ny bank.

BUT bank likes this new guy Stanley at the top as he is a:

"A career investment banker who spent 34 years at JPMorgan, Staley is popular among staff in Barclays' investment bank for bringing back some of its risk-taking swagger after the hairshirt regime of predecessor Antony Jenkins.

[unclebulgaria67]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39564289

 

Brexit voter registration might have been hacked.

 

Funny if it were found that the referendum was flawed and had to be held again. Could you imagine a court decision that the referendum result was flawed because of x,y,z issues and there was a further application in regard to Article 50. Very unlikely this would happen, but in a made world we are in, anything is possible.

[tobyjugg2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39564289

 

Brexit voter registration might have been hacked.

 

Funny if it were found that the referendum was flawed and had to be held again. Could you imagine a court decision that the referendum result was flawed because of x,y,z issues and there was a further application in regard to Article 50. Very unlikely this would happen, but in a made world we are in, anything is possible.

 

I really dont know what the heck May is playing at

* With Japan, China and many others clearly warning it will move its businesses to the EU

* The US possibly the least desirable partner in the World at the moment, and not really desirable even without Trump

* Banks already moving to the EU despite proper and increased regulation there, and those regulations intended to prevent a UK driven race to the bottom

* UK Services industries likely competing with other EU external and cheaper Indian etc services for EU business once out (so much for a deal with India)

* Likely UK reduction in environmental and workers rules putting them on a collision course with the EU

* A significant part of the UK's nuclear future bankrupt and applied for chapter 11 (Toshiba Westinghouse) with the parent company Toshiba also bankrupt and asset stripping itself,

* Another part of the UK's nuclear.energy future - EDF with not an on-time or at-cost nuclear build to its name - but dont worry - EDF wont bare any of those costs - the UK taxpayer will pay whatever happens - even on the off chance its a relative success (EDF guaranteed 2x energy price)

 

and thats not counting the almost certain breakup of the union, devastation of the UK's dairy and farming industries .. ad nausium

 

 

It would seem that fracking and poisoning the UKs environment (the EU would almost certainly have required better safeguards limiting the companies profits) is actually the bright side of Brexit.

 

 

I really cant think of a more disastrous scenario for the UK or even just England (except nuclear war with Russia).

Its shear insanity.

 

and before anyone says, Brexit cant or want happen - the only way to address that is a second referendum and there appears to be NO appetite for that among our Masters, and whos to say what the result would be given the total lack of real information and abundance of snake oil that is STILL being touted?

Others might say we will be a mini-me EU member - well that isnt what was voted for, and although as smaller nations have looong realised even being a minor member of the EU is better than not being in it - I think that would add even more division to a divided UK.

 

Neither is the UK withdrawing its 'withdraal a certainty, although I think its very likely that the EU would allow it despite some EU party resistance. Some EU counties and businesses have much to gain from a UK outside the EU on higher tariffs.

 

I can well understand why so many politicians did NOT want a referendum.

I cannot accept that the information given to the voters for them to make that decision was so twisted and deceitful.

 

Transitional deals will be to allow the businesses time to move out of the UK, all it will do for the UK is extend the period of UK collapse so we can bury our heads in the sand for a bit longer with Brexiters saying 'the collapse hasn't happened' - well it IS happening if you Brexiters pull your heads out ..

[tobyjugg2]

Britain set to lose EU ‘crown jewels’ of banking and medicine agencies

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=221969&subid=19389892&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

 

Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty.

 

 

and

Post-Brexit customs checks a 'catastrophe' for UK shipping: trade body

 

 

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-shipping-idUKKBN17E1I9

[citizenB]

Good article in the Guardian regarding voter manipulation. IMHO, if there is any doubt that the outcome was a genuine one, then there should be a new referendum with safeguards built in. Again, IMHO, it would be better for those who genuinely want to vote to turn up at Polling Stations as we used to rather than relying on Technology which is open to abuse.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/17/brexit-voter-manipulation-eu-referendum-social-media

[citizenB]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/apr/18/corbyn-cressida-dick-met-police-a-gun-may-not-have-saved-pc-killed-in-westminster-terror-attack-says-new-met-chief-politics-live

 

 

Looks like there is to be an announcement from Downing Street @ 11.15 am.

 

 

Lots of speculation.

[tobyjugg2]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/apr/18/corbyn-cressida-dick-met-police-a-gun-may-not-have-saved-pc-killed-in-westminster-terror-attack-says-new-met-chief-politics-live

 

 

Looks like there is to be an announcement from Downing Street @ 11.15 am.

 

 

Lots of speculation.

 

 

Yes, Including that its a snap election.

Could be given that the odds are that labour would be destroyed - but where would those votes go?

 

Cons? - bit of an anathema to Labour voters, particularity given the demonstrable policies of Mays cons destroying the NHS and hitting all the poorest in society while benefiting the richest. I dont think that has ever been so stark as under the current conservatives.

 

As Corbyn is doing nothing to change or effectively challenge ANY of Mays policies - why would she want to lose such an effective supporter of her policies?

The libdems did FAR more to rein in the Cons in the coalition.

 

Votes could flood to libdems, and SNP which might complicate Mays plans immensely, and possibly completely derail them even if she got a majority as is most likely.

 

We shall soon see what it is.

[unclebulgaria67]

Snap election bad for the country, as most political parties don't have the finance to contest an election. Labour just don't have the money to compete with the Tories and they are not united behind Corbyn. Lib Dems again don't have the money for an election campaign.

 

Can't see the opposition parties would vote for an early election they could not properly contend and end up with a Tory landslide.

[tobyjugg2]

and general election it is

 

We now need everybody to vote for ANYONE other than the Conservatives or Labour

 

Its a sick world when so many countries seem to consider that so many of each nations citizens generally don't want ANY of the options offered to them for leaders and so many vote for what might be the lesser evil - or dont vote at all.

[unclebulgaria67]

I would vote SNP, but can't as a live in England. The SNP are closest to my politics on many issues. Stuart Hosie the SNP finance spokesperson is one of the most knowledgeable people in the HoC on economics.

 

I vote Lib Dem, because i have never been convinced by recent Tory parties being genuinely interested in serving the whole country and not just the wealthiest 20% of the population.

[obiter dictum]

Why do I feel we are not being told the full story and more to this story for a snap election

[snowdragon]

deff not Labour please, anyone but them! bit of a shock this snap election :o

[obiter dictum]

Could the reason be Tory election fraud means she was about to lose 20 MP's so to beat the arrests she announces a snap election.

 

It a bold move as polls are not to be trusted and I think labour in England are in a much better position than the polls show.

[tobyjugg2]

Why do I feel we are not being told the full story and more to this story for a snap election

 

I believe many in the Tory party have been calling for it and May does NOT have a voter mandate whatever she prattles about will of the people.

 

Now is probably the best time before Labour get rid of Corbyn and mcdonnal(ds) as unhealthy for everyone.

 

With probable extensions to the EU divorce periods, she will probably rule beyond its implementation if shw wins - as is likely - that wasnt likely to be the case before.

 

BUT of course, the MAIN reason - Like Cameron - will primarily be to quiet those in her own party.

Lets hope it backfires as badly.

 

The 'voice of the people' for the Tories has always been the voice of its powerful party members.

[fletch70]

I think we have a major problem with this election

 

If the conservatives win, the country will have a hard brexit and be screwed for many many years - the union will probably fail etc etc

 

But how do we ensure they do not win- are labour electable? Is a vote for the Lib Dems a wasted vote?

 

Its a sad fact that in many of the places labour need to win , the electorate voted leave

[tobyjugg2]

I think we have a major problem with this election

 

If the conservatives win, the country will have a hard brexit and be screwed for many many years - the union will probably fail etc etc

 

 

 

But how do we ensure they do not win- are labour electable?

 

Is a vote for the Lib Dems a wasted vote?

 

 

Well Labour under Corbyn will likely be a hard Brexit apart from wellcoming 'refugees' and immigrants from what I can gather,

Corbyn wants out of the EU full stop.

 

Corbyn happily says he will tax the wealthy to fund his policies - well I'm afraid the wealthy are mostly leaving, and wouldn't stay with Corbyn anyway.

 

 

For those who think Corbyn will resign to save the Labur Party

NO HE WONT.

In his mind he and his followers ARE the Labour party and if he had his way, all the MP's who aren't his followers would be deselected and replaced - and will be before too long anyway.

Dictators dont tolerate dissidents or dissent

 

Think Corbyn is worried about a labour destroyed and 5th in Parliamentary seats behind UKIP SNP and Libdems?

 

That is still a massive step up for someone who's used to leading rallies of a few hundred people and he is every bit as fanatical as any Jihadist. He'll be sure in himself that all the voters will 'get it' eventually

Corbyn will be hanging onto the door frame kicking and screaming when he is dragged out

 

 

I think these Tories are probably the worsr in my memory and have been a lifelong Labour general election voter (although I occasionally haven't in local elections) and life long union member

YET I WILL NOT vote for Labour.under Corbyn, Mcdonnal or even Abboit now,

and have quit Unite although wouldn't have quit Unison if I were still in their membership.

 

(Unite was the recognised union where I last worked so I moved - I shouldn't have)

 

I would no more vote for any party led by Corbyn than I would a party led by Gove.

 

I wont be voting Labour (unless the Corbynites are GONE) or Tory. My conscience would nag me forever.