Park with Ease Brockholes Unfair Parking invoices **WON CANCELLED**

[fidav]

I joined this forum after googling "parking disputes at Brockholes" (nr Preston.)

I am not the first to raise this issue.

 

Today (2nd September 2016)

I have received a letter from Park with Ease (dated 24th August 2016 , Envelope unfranked so I cannot prove posting date)

claiming I didn't pay my parking fees at Brockholes Country park on 9th August 2016 and demanding £50 fine (or £25 if I pay up quickly!!)

 

Try googling 'disputes with carparking at Brockholes' and it is amazing how often this situation comes up.

Brockholes don't accept responsibility for any of this - as they state on their web site...

 

Brockholes have a vehicle recognition system in place.

A sign advised you to pay on leaving the car park.

I did so

- paid the maximum £6 and had a conversation with strangers at the payment machine as to the expense of the fees.

 

I have no evidence or proof that I paid.

Parked on 9th August.

- I don't dispute that I parked but I know I paid the maximum amount.

.. what to do if I cannot prove I paid almost a month later?

 

Park with Ease is apparetly registered with IPC and hence have the right to get my personal details from DVLA.

Furious as I really cannot prove I paid -- what can I do?

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

Park with (NO) ease are members of the flawed IPC so no matter what you do, you will never get them to admit they are wrong.

 

Was it one of these sites where you have to input your registration number (I bet it is) and you may have typed it wrong.

 

As this site is likely to be ANPR, thy have a record of that days entry and exit so they should know how much was inserted into the machines. If it was out by an amount similar to what you paid, they would have to explain it...to a court if necessary.

 

I would be appealing to them and then the IPC as it costs PWE money and the only way they can get you to pay is by taking court action against you.

 

While they do instigate legal action on occasion (22 this year so far) we have no idea how many wins they have had. I would bet a fully defended claim would encourage them to not turn up.

 

Are you able to visit the site and get up to date photographs of the signage?

 

Oh yes, you should also complain to Brockholes as they are a charity and wouldn't want the bad press.

[fidav]

Thanks for this reply

- helpful

- but I llive over 400 miles from Brockholes

- so no I cannot get there easily and wouldn't particulary want to have to go to court

-- but am feeling so angry that would be willing to take them to court,

even if it costs me several times the "fine" to get there.

 

having googled this issue before I joined the forum,

I can see that Brockholes wash their hands of it

- beyond saying "sorry" and "there is an appeals process as detailed in the letter" -

 

- words along these lines have been their standard reply to facebook comments and tripadvisor comments over the last 2-3 years.

 

The place was "heaving" the day I went,

so clearly it hasn't dented the popularity and although they advertise it as "free"

- in fact it is quite an expensive day after paying parking, lunches, and activities without considering this ludicrous fine.

[silverfox1961]

I also read on the website that the payment machine is used to pay when you are ready to leave and (theoretically) it should have recognised the number input into the machine against your number plate to give you an amount.

You state that you paid so the system must have recognised your number plate.

 

Also, the date of parking is the 9th of August. The letter is dated the 24th August so in my opinion, they are also out of time. With ANPR systems, they must contact the keeper within 14 days. The date on the letter is one day late.

 

I would base the appeal on the fact that you paid and their system MUST show that to be true.

The Notice to Keeper is out of time.

They are agents for the landowner and as such, have no propriety interest in the land so the amounts of the charge (It is NOT a fine) is unreasonable, especially as you paid.

 

I would also put them on notice that if they intend on trying this in court, you will demand the video evidence and the computer printouts showing nothing was paid.

[Gick]

fidav

As Silverfox has pointed out, this PPC is a member of the flawed IPC (run by Gladstones solicitors who then act for the members in taking so called offenders to court!) so any appeal is a paper exercise only. The IPC tend to assume that the registered keeper was also the.driver.

 

Whatever you do, please do NOT identify yourself as the driver, otherwise you will lose your rights under the Protection of Freedom Act 2012. Although the IPC do not claim to use the Pofa, if this were to proceed to court, it would come into play if they do not know the driver's identity.

 

As has been mentioned by Silverfox, their Notice to Keeper (NTK) is non compliant with Pofa as it is dated 15 days after the event whilst the Act requires it to be received by the keeper within 14 days of the event, beginning the day following.

 

Do not go into details in any appeal, a one line such as " The debt under reference xxx is denied in it's entirety. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with section 9 of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012."

 

Do not sign it, merely printing your name as shown on the V5c document for the vehicle.

 

I would imagine that Ericsbrother, the guru for these speculative invoices, will be along later, so in the meantime a little reading of earlier threads will familiarize you with both abbreviations used on the site and the form that these things take.

[fidav]

Sadly the advice comes too late - I responded to PWE by email before I found this site - admitted parking and told them I had already paid in full.......

[silverfox1961]

Sadly the advice comes too late - I responded to PWE by email before I found this site - admitted parking and told them I had already paid in full.......

 

I don't think it matters much as if they were to try it on in court, they would need to prove their case and this is where the defence comes in as mentioned above.

 

It's a shame they now know you were the driver but all is not lost. They would be stupid to try this on in court but unfortunately, most of the PPC's out there don't have much in the way of grey matter.

Expect letters from debt collectors who have as much power as I do. None!

Gladstones may get involved at a later date but that doesn't mean court.

[fidav]

Thanks - if any letters from debt collectors come - I will ask for further advice. Could be fun if they tried to send anyone out.......I live in a rather remote place ..Not sure how such issues are affected by the fact that I live in Scotland.

[ericsbrother]

I would just ignore them for the moment,

they have got so many things wrong it is not worth explaining to them where.

 

Living in Scotland doesnt affect this being under english law,

it is where the contract was formed that is important and that is England.

 

however, read up about Brocvkholes and you will see that there are fatal problems with the sigange at the site,

the layout of the ANPR cameras as they cover access roads to other property etc.

 

all of these will negate their claim even if they got the NTK right

and had a valid claim for breach of contract, which they dont.

[fidav]

Will await response -( and keep you all posted ) from Brockholes and PWE as well as DVLA, Trading Standards Preston, IPC, Lancashire Wildlife Trust

- I was angry so have had a busy day

- or should I say a wasted day

- I should have been doing more useful tasks not what feels like defending myself (an innocent and defenceless OAP) against organised crime.

 

I do find it very disappointing that what appears to be a respectable charity (Brockholes aka Lancashire Wildlife Trust) should persist in using this company when there have been so many apparently legitimate issues over a long period of time.

[fidav]

As a newbie

- probably posting in the wrong place

- sorry but forum is quite complicated for me "of a certain age".

 

Just wanted to say thank you for setting up the forum

and thank you to those who send helpful relies to posts.

 

When I received a demand for £50 for alleged non payment of parking fees at Brockholes Preston

- my reactions were disbelief, shock and extreme distress

(because I did pay the correct amount) followed by extreme anger..

 

I really do not know the outcome of my particular situation

- seems many just pay up because that is the cheapest and easiest option.

 

I do not intend to let them get away with this and I thank you for your support and advice

[BankFodder]

Very kind of you to say so.

 

Have you posted in the parking forum and asked fro advice there?

[fidav]

Oh yes - and have had some useful replies just a shame I found this site after sending my irate replies to Parking with Ease and Brockholes itself -- didn't do things the best way it seems.. but we shall see and I will post the responses I get in the right place

[BankFodder]

Not particularly aimed at parking, but if you want to advice about general approaches to dealing with companies then you could look at the Consumer Survival handbook

[dx100uk]

please don't cough up to them.

 

just follow the advise given. the old fox. and eric

send that new letter as advised

 

dx

[fidav]

Finances limited - but will certainly think about it and recommend to others

[ericsbrother]

Now you tell us you have contacted PWE

- what exactly did you say as you may have well destroyed any protection you have in law from these bandits regarding the Protection of Freedoms Act.

 

Sadly many people do this,

come here asking for advice after they have taken action when keeping quiet is the best course.

 

 

If you have told them you were driving and you paid then they will pursue you as the business they are in is based on dishonesty- they tell lies to the landowners to get on the site and then abuse that trust and mislead the people they send the demands to.

It is the only way they can make money so there is no incentive for them to act in a scrupulous manner.

 

Being a pensioner is no excuse,

people older than us invented the computer so the youth of today dont have to think.

We silvertops dont have that excuse.

[fidav]

Yes I replied to them

- sadly before I found this forum

-- as you say I may well have destroyed any protection I had -

- I admitted being the driver and parking and angrily said I had paid -

- commented on various things but should I offer the information publicly?

Can attach my letter to pm or something if that is any use.

 

No I do not think being a pensioner is an excuse for anything

(but on the other hand when and if I write to the local papers etc I may well mention this )

 

 

I suspect I have little chance of succeeding from the info I have seen here and on other sites

- and quite possibly lost the slim chance I had by responding in anger before finding this forum.

 

 

Nevertheless I will not give up easily..

I know I paid -

- as apparently did others (who have then coughed up the fine).

 

 

Somewhere along the line I have faith that honesty and good win out

-- maybe not for me -

- but for others.

 

 

So I will fight as far as I can and I will publicise my issues as widely as I can -

- There is clearly something wrong.

. there cannot be so many complaints about car parking fines without a good deal of right on the side of the complainers

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

All is probably not lost, it just might be a bit more complicated.

 

Don't beat yourself up, you've found us now. The guys will do their best to help you.

 

HB

[fidav]

Can somebody please clarify something for me?

 

I read that the NTK must be sent out within 14 days - starting the day after the event.

 

How exactly does this work?

eg if the event was 9th August and the "invoice" dated 24th August

- it was impossible for the keeper to receive it within the time.

 

In fact the letter arrived on 2nd September, which even allowing for a Bank holiday, is very suspicious.

Is this invoice "out of time"?

[silverfox1961]

YES!

The Notice to Keeper must be received within 14 days.

The letter is dated 24th which, after allowing one day to get the data leaves 14 days.

 

 

You should have received before the date on the letter.

 

 

Unless they hand delivered the letter on the same day (we know they didn't

) they cannot rely on it as it is well out of time.

 

It is awkward that you named yourself as the driver so you have no protection from that.

I am actually surprised they sent a NTK as they knew you were the driver.

[fidav]

They know I am the driver because I angrily contacted them and said I was there ,

 

I did park and I DID PAY THE MAXIMUM DAILY AMOUNT OF £6.

I did this before seeing the excellent advice here - shame.

 

- new review on tripadvisor for Brockholes -- guess what? Another similar story.

 

Trying to guestimate - I am guessing the car park holds 2-300 vehicles at any one time.. some stay longer than others so let's guestimate 400 cars passing through per day at peak times such as August. 400 x 31 (days in August) =.12,400.

 

Somewhere Brockholes answered a complaint by saying only 3% of visitors have issues with car parking.

3% of 12,400 would be 372.

So 372 could be the approximate number of "invoices" sent out by PWE in August 2016 alone..

Rather too high a number to cover, human error, machine error or even intentional non-payment.

 

Most of these will cave in and pay up for simplicity and speed -- a nice little earner.

 

PWE/Brockholes if you read this please feel free to offer more accurate figures.

[dx100uk]

you paid. perfect defence

let them willy wave.

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

agree, let them make the next move.

[Oddfellow]

I would have thought it is counter-productive to get hung up on the timing of the NTK: they don't need to use PoFA to identify the keeper, as they know who the driver was.

 

 

The burden of proof is on THEM to prove you didn't pay. As has been said already, the ANPR and pay machine data will prove you did.

 

 

If you are complaining to charities, you need to be directing your correspondence to each member of the Board of Trustees for that charity (contact addresses are usually available somewhere). And maybe the Charities Commissioner too.