Can bailiff visit Ltd Co premises for pers CTAX arrears?

[Coughdrop]

 

I would prefer not to use this particular thread to fully discuss the 'entry rights' into properties as this is subject that I plan to address in the 'discussion' section of the forum shortly. It is also a subject where there are differing opinions. The countries expert on bailiff law has his views on the point of a 'recoverable licence' and considers that consent to remain on the premises can be withdrawn by the debtor. Recently, there has been a challenge to his opinion (which has been the subject of some interesting discussions with some forum members). Once again, this will shortly be addressed elsewhere on the forum.

 

Can you please forget the subject of committal. This will not happen.

 

PS: I have sent you a personal message and copied it to one of the moderators.

 

Yes - do forget about commital as it is exceedingly rare. Bailiff Advice is correct about this.

 

Regarding entry rights, if they are relevant here and now, would it not be a good idea to share your thoughts on the issue? I'm concerned that with the level of misinformation and pure opinion, rather than fact being posted at present, bypassing the public forum is dangerous.

[whitsend]

The Heritage people will not let us put up any signs on the front of the building as the frontage is the major feature of the building and it is listed and in a conservative area. I only have a 4 inch sign on the letterbox, that says letterbox for and my company name. As I said earlier they found my company by asking around using my name not my business name, as they had the wrong business name and address, but the correct contact name. The address was also incorrect on the letter. But even the business name they had was a Limited company so that doesn't seem to make any difference to them visiting.

[Bailiff Advice]

The Heritage people will not let us put up any signs on the front of the building as the frontage is the major feature of the building and it is listed and in a conservative area. I only have a 4 inch sign on the letterbox, that says letterbox for and my company name. As I said earlier they found my company by asking around using my name not my business name, as they had the wrong business name and address, but the correct contact name. The address was also incorrect on the letter. But even the business name they had was a Limited company so that doesn't seem to make any difference to them visiting.

 

As I mentioned a while back, the simplest route to recover the debt may be via an attachment of earnings now that the enforcement company appear to have found out where your Limited company trade from. If you could address the query that I raised earlier on this point it would assist.

 

To save me time having to read back on past posts, how much are the enforcement company seeking from you?

[whitsend]

Yes - do forget about commital as it is exceedingly rare. Bailiff Advice is correct about this.

 

Regarding entry rights, if they are relevant here and now, would it not be a good idea to share your thoughts on the issue? I'm concerned that with the level of misinformation and pure opinion, rather than fact being posted at present, bypassing the public forum is dangerous.

 

It is the entry rights that really worry me at the moment, as I said home is not a problem, just a scrap van they could take, which I don't think they would bother with. But work is, during the day they could just walk in and around until they found someone or got themselves lost or hurt. Can I just send them away from my place of work without them getting any kind of walking possession or engaging with them at all. Or would I be better fetching the owner from his other building to come get rid of them. I don't really want to involve him as he can be over zealous when it comes to confrontation and I don't want to make matters worse. it would be better if I could just tell them to go. This week I only have one part time employee at work who is a lady in her mid sixties and it really worries me in case they hassle her.

[Coughdrop]

To save me time having to read back on past posts, how much are the enforcement company seeking from you?

 

Allow me to do it for you! The amount was either £1200 or £2400 depending whether it was for one year, or whether the amount for this year was added also.

[whitsend]

As I mentioned a while back, the simplest route to recover the debt may be via an attachment of earnings now that the enforcement company appear to have found out where your Limited company trade from. If you could address the query that I raised earlier on this point it would assist.

 

To save me time having to read back on past posts, how much are the enforcement company seeking from you?

 

I am self employed, no deductions of earnings order possible, and although there was no amount of the letter I received, it was left blank where it said balance due, the lady at the council seemed to be confused on whether is was 1200 or 2400 as she said they may have gone for a liability order for this years council tax as well. She said better to ring back next week and speak to someone more senior. As I said earlier I applied for help with my council tax last year, but it went on and on, because I self employed they wanted more and more information, and it just went on and on for months, so in the end I gave up.

[Coughdrop]

It is the entry rights that really worry me at the moment, as I said home is not a problem, just a scrap van they could take, which I don't think they would bother with. But work is, during the day they could just walk in and around until they found someone or got themselves lost or hurt. Can I just send them away from my place of work without them getting any kind of walking possession or engaging with them at all. Or would I be better fetching the owner from his other building to come get rid of them. I don't really want to involve him as he can be over zealous when it comes to confrontation and I don't want to make matters worse. it would be better if I could just tell them to go. This week I only have one part time employee at work who is a lady in her mid sixties and it really worries me in case they hassle her.

 

Yes, I imagine this does worry you. Given BA has stated about conflicting opinion, I imagine you would like like to know your options here, or at least the differing opinions so you can try to make an informed decision.

[Bailiff Advice]

I am self employed, no deductions of earnings order possible. .

 

Given that it is so easy to gain entry into the premises, the focus should be on ensuring that you have documentation to support the fact that the goods within the premises belong to the business.

 

Given the type of business, it may be the case that the sheer size, weight and difficulty with removal etc may to your advantage.

[Coughdrop]

Not to mention the heat at which expensive items can be at!

[Peterbard]

I am self employed, no deductions of earnings order possible, and although there was no amount of the letter I received, it was left blank where it said balance due, the lady at the council seemed to be confused on whether is was 1200 or 2400 as she said they may have gone for a liability order for this years council tax as well. She said better to ring back next week and speak to someone more senior. As I said earlier I applied for help with my council tax last year, but it went on and on, because I self employed they wanted more and more information, and it just went on and on for months, so in the end I gave up.

 

The ammount on the warrant can only be that on the liability order, the bailiff can only pursue this, also the authority can only pursue the measures mentioned ,committal proceedings etc. on that ammount

 

However there is nothing stopping the council saying that they will only accept a payment arrangement if you include the more recent arrears.

[Peterbard]

Does the bailiff know your company title, is it xxxxxx ltd. ?

[whitsend]

Given that it is so easy to gain entry into the premises, the focus should be on ensuring that you have documentation to support the fact that the goods within the premises belong to the business.

 

Given the type of business, it may be the case that the sheer size, weight and difficulty with removal etc may to your advantage.

 

It would be impossible to remove any of the high value items, without taking out walls and I can't see them taking out the walls and destroying the fascia of one of the top 13 most important building in the city, listed as that by the council, for 2400 council tax. We cant even change a window or have a roller shutter door installed, even have to have permission to paint it. Plus as you say it is very difficult to take something that is 1300 centigrade. Anything else I have would be no use to anyone else and impossible to sell. Its just the hassle to my employee that worries me.

 

What kind of documentation do I need, to prove these items belong to the business and some to the building itself.

[whitsend]

Does the bailiff know your company title, is it xxxxxx ltd. ?

 

He didn't do, he had the wrong one, but does now. My employee told him.

 

Yes it is Ltd.

[whitsend]

Ok, talking to the owner of my building today, and he had some points I never thought about.

 

Our building no longer has a valid postcode as it as been in disuse for 13 years, when you put in the old postcode only one business comes up, and that is the company name that was on the letter I received from the bailiff.

 

Also I am known by the council due to my dealings with their heritage department, and my efforts to conserve and restore the building. I never give this a thought as I would of thought they were completely different departments.

 

They also know that I am nearly always there as they have seen that I occasionally sleep there, and have living accomodation there. This was once questioned as the building can only be used as a residence by the person using the building as his place of work. Cannot be turned into flats etc. He wonders if they think I live there. That is why they never visited the actual address the council tax was for.

[Peterbard]

I was looking back at some earlier posts of yours and had assumed that you were probably in the same type of business (pottery). Can I please assure you once again that goods belonging to a Limited Company cannot be taken to secure a personal council tax debt. If however the debt was for National Non Domestic Rates (NNDR)......

 

I would prefer not to use this particular thread to fully discuss the 'entry rights' into properties as this is subject that I plan to address in the 'discussion' section of the forum shortly. It is also a subject where there are differing opinions. The countries expert on bailiff law has his views on the point of a 'recoverable licence' and considers that consent to remain on the premises can be withdrawn by the debtor. Recently, there has been a challenge to his opinion (which has been the subject of some interesting discussions with some forum members). Once again, this will shortly be addressed elsewhere on the forum.

 

 

PS: I have sent you a personal message and copied it to one of the moderators.

 

Yes indeed, we have known that bailiffs operating under an "implied right of access", was legally nonsense, and in fact since the new legislation came into force and the entry rights set in them was a none issue..

 

It was good however to see the position as it was clarified and the correct interpretation given to the misquoted case law as a matter of interest.

[Bailiff Advice]

Yes indeed, we have known that bailiffs operating under an "implied right of access", was legally nonsense, and in fact since the new legislation came into force and the entry rights set in them was a none issue..

 

It was good however to see the position as it was clarified and the correct interpretation given to the misquoted case law as a matter of interest.

 

Correct. This is the wrong thread to go into 'implied rights' and 'licences' and this is why I merely touched upon it here.

 

Prior to TCE and the Crime & Courts Act 2013, some may have argued the point about 'implied licences' , 'trespass' etc but I don't believe that this is any longer the case. A challenge may at some time be made to the High Court.

[Coughdrop]

I am going to contact the council again next week, by letter. But also I am going to start making payments of £50 aweek on their online payment site.

 

Just to clarify, are you stating you intend starting to pay £50 a week once the account has been returned, or are you intending doing this immediately?

 

The reason I ask is that currently the debt will have the bailiff's fees included (£310). The first £75 of any payment made while it is with bailiffs will go straight to them, not one penny will come off the debt. After that, any payments would be divided pro rata, roughly 70:30 or 60:40 (depending on which version you read) between council and bailiff.

 

I would ensure you start paying only after the debt is returned. By doing this, bailiff fees die, so your debt will be £310 less. It also means every penny you pay will come off the debt.

[Peterbard]

Pro rata on this would be about 6 : 1 . 16.6% to the agent.

[Coughdrop]

Just to clarify, are you stating you intend starting to pay £50 a week once the account has been returned, or are you intending doing this immediately?

 

The reason I ask is that currently the debt will have the bailiff's fees included (£310). The first £75 of any payment made while it is with bailiffs will go straight to them, not one penny will come off the debt. After that, any payments would be divided pro rata.

 

I would ensure you start paying only after the debt is returned. By doing this, bailiff fees die, so your debt will be £310 less. It also means every penny you pay will come off the debt.

 

I wouldn't want Whitsend to be sidetracked by more off topic posts, so it's worth repeating, with the ratios omitted. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is once the account is returned, all the fees will die as they normally do when accounts are returned. It would be a shame for Whitsend to make a payment, only to find she had effectively thrown money away straight into the bailiff's pocket.

[Peterbard]

I think this has been gone over about five times in this thread. I am sure that if the OP is unsure she will ask.

[Coughdrop]

I think this has been gone over about five times in this thread. I am sure that if the OP is unsure she will ask.

 

No, I was accused of debt avoidance when I mentioned fees at the start of the thread. Fees have not been raised specifically elsewhere I don't think. What has been stated is it is best to inform them so any decision is made with all information available. I'm sure none of us want the OP wasting money on bailiff's fees.

[whitsend]

I am only going to start paying the £50 once the debt is returned as I was advised.

 

I am also going to address the data protection issues with the council.

[whitsend]

i am still hoping someone will be able to advise me if I can make the bailiff leave my premises if he returns. It is hassling my employee now that worries me. His visit was 6th July, so does that mean if he doesn't return by 13th July the debt has gone back to the council and he will not revisit.

 

Also if the council sends this out to another bailiffs, am I going to have to go through this all again, and will their fees come off the payments I make to the council.

[Peterbard]

I am only going to start paying the £50 once the debt is returned as I was advised.

 

I am also going to address the data protection issues with the council.

 

The problem with that is you will not know when that occurs, they may re issue it before you pay or they may still have it when you send your payment.

 

Can you say why you had no notices at your home address ?

[Peterbard]

How much do you think your tools are worth, that is how much would the raise at auction ?

 

Do you have any of them listed as assets on your annual accounts.