Civil Enforcement Ltd PCN - doctor's surgery

[meats]

Hi,

 

My other half received a PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd following her picking up a prescription at the local doctor's surgery. She has a letter from the surgery confirming that this was the case on the same date on which the PCN says.

 

My wife decided to inform Civil Enforcement Ltd directly that this was the case, along with the letter, and surprisingly enough these cowboys rejected her appeal. She then informed me of this and I am now trying to sort it out.

 

In their letter to her they said their internal appeals process has been exhausted and if she wishes to continue her appeal she needs to go directly to POPLA.

 

Could you please let me know whether I can write to them again, along the lines of the thread below or whether I will need to go to POPLA? I'm guessing they'll just ignore any further correspondence directly to them.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?464918-PCN-from-quot-Civil-Enforcement

 

If I need to appeal to POPLA could you please advise on what the letter should say?

 

I have attached the PCN (I don't have a scanner at home hence the various pieces of paper covering up details - the letter is identical to the one in the link above). The incident date was 17 May 2016 and the PCN issue date is 15 June 2016.

 

Thanks

[BankFodder]

Did she go to get the prescription by arrangement or by appointment? In other words, did the doctors know that she would be coming to get the prescription – and of course if they did know then they could be taken to have approved.

 

Apart from all the other good advice that you will receive here, I would be in for causing a bit of mischief.

 

If the doctors knew that she was coming to get the prescription and so there was an implicit permission, then I would write to civil enforcement and tell them that whatever happens, if they decide to take you to court, you will be joining the doctors surgery as a second defendant on the basis that they had authorised your visit and authorised your parking.

 

– I'm assuming that the owners of the car park of the surgery and that it is the surgery which is using this parking company to manage the space.

 

If civil enforcement did bring the action, then I would defend it and involve the surgery as a second defendant. I'm quite sure that that would put the cat among the pigeons because the surgery want a quiet life and they wouldn't want all the hassle of getting involved in this. Also, it would raise huge questions as to exactly what the parameters of the so-called – contract – are and whether by authorising the visit and therefore implicitly approving the parking, that the surgery was then directly responsible to the parking company.

 

I think we could all have a very good laugh about this.

[Homer67]

This is definitely a non starter for the PPC.

How ridiculous to try an impose a parking charge for parking at your Doctor's surgery.

 

 

Any implied right you have to park there would trump the silly PPC 'rules'

It would help if it was a pre-booked appointment but it isn't essential to you not parting with a penny.

 

 

If the PPC have declared that you have made an appeal and it has been rejected

then they should have provided you with a POPLA code.

 

 

If they haven't then that's their fault and it will stop them from progressing it further.

[silverfox1961]

I would be in for causing a bit of mischief

 

You rebel BF

 

I don't think this case will ever see the insides of a court room as POPLA should dismiss this out of hand. That is on the assumption that POPLA are still truly independant and not like the IPC.

 

I can't think of a more pathetic case so far this year

[meats]

Just to answer a couple of questions now that I've spoken to my wife.

 

She was called up by the surgery to collect her test results and was asked to come before 5pm, which she did.

 

 

Not an appointment in the strictest sense but it could be argued that the surgery was expecting her.

As previously said, she also collected a prescription from the pharmacy on site

and has a letter from the surgery confirming this.

 

The reason why I suspect they are enforcing this is because apparently when you check yourself in at the surgery you have to key in your car registration number.

 

 

They are claiming that because she didn't do this (she turned up close to 5 and wanted to get her results as she had been worried all day as she's pregnant and forgot to do this) then she was not authorised to use the car park.

 

 

I find it a complete joke but that's not important.

 

What are the next steps?

Do I need to write to POPLA and register an appeal?

 

 

If I ignore it and don't appeal will there be any repercussions on my wife should they decide to take this further?

 

 

They have provided a POPLA code on their letter rejecting my wife's appeal.

[silverfox1961]

Yes, appeal to POPLA. You can do this online. I would imagine the surgery is on rented land so you could ask the surgery for the name of the landowner and ask the surgery to complain and (hopefully) get the charge cancelled.

 

Any chance of pictures of the signs, how prominent they are.

 

As it stands, I see it as this:

She didn't need to log in as there was no appointment but she was there legitimately to collect the test results. All Pharmacies allow over the counter drugs to be sold therefore no need (again) to log in.

The management of the site need bringing to task over this as it seems to be designed to catch people out. Unlawful parkers should be deterred but when she has a reason to be there, charges should not apply.

 

In your appeal to POPLA, do not include mitigating circumstances as they don't judge on them, just facts.

 

Get some pictures and we can rip them apart.

[meats]

Thanks silverfox - I'll take a walk down there shortly and get some pictures of the car park signs. Pretty sure that the pharmacy is also before the self check in but I will confirm this whilst there.

 

Here is the sign from the car park. It is also dotted around the car park so it is visible.

[silverfox1961]

Well I would add misleading signs to the list. It says permit holders only so in fact she was a trespasser and only the landowner can take action (my opinion)

The sign is non complaint anyway as it doesn't have the BPA logo on it

Did you find out where the touchscreen is? before or after the pharmacy?

[meats]

It's after the pharmacy.

[silverfox1961]

Did you see how many signs there were? there should be quite a few dotted around the car park. I also note the sign isn't lit. No matter at this time of year but what about in the winter when the surgery is still open and it's dark.

 

I would be appealing on these lines.

 

No breach of contract as no contract to breach (at the most it would be trespass and no loss was caused)

Poorly worded signage

Improper signage (no BPA logo)

Possible insufficient signage.

The amount claimed is for breach of contract where no contract exists.

CEL are a bunch of cowboys( although you could leave that bit out)

[ericsbrother]

they have no authority to form contracts and your wife has superiority of contract anyway.

 

I would get her to write a very short letter saying simply this and that she has rumbled them and that they should now try and mug someone else.

 

They will then crawl back under their stone.

[meats]

As an update to this.

 

I appealed to POPLA and Civil Enforcement came back with what appears to be a fairly standard response document with a couple of customised elements - and an awful lot of repetition.

 

POPLA has invited me to make comments on Civil Enforcement's response. So far I intend to make comments on them not having authority to make a contract as they reference forming a contract in their response. They mention BPA in their notes but no BPA logo on their signs - shall I comment on this again?

 

They mention that the sign says "all visitors must register" with no exceptions - they have added the no exceptions part and not indicated that it's included on the sign. Should I remark on this no exceptions part?

 

They (Civil Enforcement) dismissed the letter from the doctor's surgery confirming my wife was there to pick up a prescription and said that this is irrelevant as their signs said a permit is required etc. I will again mention that my wife was at the health centre to pick up a prescription, as confirmed by the health centre and was not there for any other purpose.

 

Any advice gratefully received.

 

Thanks,

[silverfox1961]

My points in red

 

As an update to this.

 

I appealed to POPLA and Civil Enforcement came back with what appears to be a fairly standard response document with a couple of customised elements - and an awful lot of repetition.

 

POPLA has invited me to make comments on Civil Enforcement's response. So far I intend to make comments on them not having authority to make a contract as they reference forming a contract in their response. They mention BPA in their notes but no BPA logo on their signs - shall I comment on this again? Absolutely

 

They mention that the sign says "all visitors must register" with no exceptions - they have added the no exceptions part and not indicated that it's included on the sign. Should I remark on this no exceptions part? Yes, the sign does say that all health centre users must register however she didn't use the health centre, only the pharmacy and if CEL are saying that 'no exceptions is part of the signage then you should include the photo you have

They (Civil Enforcement) dismissed the letter from the doctor's surgery confirming my wife was there to pick up a prescription and said that this is irrelevant as their signs said a permit is required etc. I will again mention that my wife was at the health centre to pick up a prescription, as confirmed by the health centre and was not there for any other purpose.

 

Any advice gratefully received.

 

Thanks,

 

Nowadays, most surgeries do not give out paper prescriptions as these are automatically sent via computer to a chosen pharmacy so there is no need to attend the health centre.

 

I wouldn't worry if POPLA go against you either as IF CEL tried this one on at court, they would be hard pressed to show a loss.

 

Did you ever contact the health centre or landlord direct? They have authority to cancel any ticket with CEL.

[meats]

My wife spoke to the health centre and they gave her the letter which I attached previously.

 

She's going down there tomorrow for an appointment so I've asked her to speak to someone not on reception at the health centre requesting they get this cancelled.

 

Have told her to inform them that if this does go to court then they will be called up as a witness which could result in negative press for them not looking after a bona fide patient.

[ericsbrother]

3 points, 1/ the addition of the wording that is not on the signage to make a false claim or embellish matters and 2/supremacy of contract- it is for the doctors surgery to make whatever arrangemetns they wish and that cannot be interfered wityh by CEL. 3. CEL HAVENT shown they have a right to make a claim

Dont mince your words or make any staement too verbiose, the reason why she was there is irrelevant

[meats]

Hi,

 

Sorry for the bump on this thread but seeing as this post relates to the same PCN I thought it was a valid bump!

 

Nearly 2 years on, Civil Enforcement has been in touch again to inform us that when we don't make payment in 14 days they will be passing us on to "third part collection agents" (yes third part not even a third party...!). I have attached the letter to this post.

 

Do I need to respond to this letter or can I just ignore it? If I need to, or can respond, is there a template which will get rid of these cowboys once and for all?

 

On a separate note, they are using our previous address. The people living at our old address dropped this off as they were passing by but I have instructed them to pop it back in the post with 'not known at this address' on the envelope next time.

 

Thanks,

[silverfox1961]

Hi again.

 

I take it POPLA didn't uphold your appeal. As for that letter it is full of IF and MAY. They may decide that they can take court action but if they do, help will be forthcoming.

 

As it stands, they are just threatening to pass it on to a third party. OOH-SCARY-NOT! This third party would be a debt collector who has as much power over you than I do (i.e, NONE)

After this length of time, I would ignore.

[dx100uk]

Why have they not got your correct address?

No don't send them back!!

[meats]

Would it be more beneficial for me if I don't send them back? On the basis I can claim I never received them I'm guessing?

What if it gets to court and they're still using the wrong address?

[meats]

Hi again.

 

I take it POPLA didn't uphold your appeal. As for that letter it is full of IF and MAY. They may decide that they can take court action but if they do, help will be forthcoming.

 

As it stands, they are just threatening to pass it on to a third party. OOH-SCARY-NOT! This third party would be a debt collector who has as much power over you than I do (i.e, NONE)

After this length of time, I would ignore.

 

 

Correct POPLA rejected it. Civil Enforcement then went quiet for best part of two years and then chirped up again a few days back.

[dx100uk]

Would it be more beneficial for me if I don't send them back? On the basis I can claim I never received them I'm guessing? What if it gets to court and they're still using the wrong address?

 

Backdoor C laimform danger here

And CEL are masters at that

 

Send simple letter

This in my new address

[meats]

Thanks, will literally just send them a one liner.

[dx100uk]

yep then job done

then totally ignore

 

unless you get a letter before/of claim from a solicitor

or

a claimform from the court.

[ericsbrother]

you write to them and say that the service address for all legal documents is.... (new address) and that any civil claim will be vigourously defended.

 

As you have moved they would start a court claim and bump the amopunt up to over £600 and file at your old address to win by a walkover.

By telling them of your current address and telling them that you are up for a fight they will be less likely to do anything at all.