The European Union.....In or Out?

[san_d]

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Axy0023

 

I have read your link top to bottom and it is irrelevant in relation to 1974/75, at that time very few of the general public had computers,(I never knew anybody with one) so were unable like today to access that information, which suited the government of the day, which was to keep the real purpose of the then common market.

 

Today you have that advantage so are able to look up the relevant information.

 

These are the original leaflets posted through every letter box in the UK.

 

1. Is the government issue leaflet, with all the same propaganda that you are getting from the in mob today, if we don’t vote to stay we will as a country disintegrate.

2. Is the leaflet produced by the in mob with the same rubbish as the governments leaflet.

3. This leaflet is from OUT it is the only leaflet to give any honest information, to the general public.

 

So please don’t say the general public should have done their researched, it was just not available at the time, and even if it had been it was not made available to the public because government did not want the country to know what they were signing up to.

 

So what you're saying is that citizens shouldn't do their homework and think with their own head but vote according to propaganda leaflets?

 

Well, Sir or Madam, I disagree!

[silverfox1961]

I openly admit to being a fence sitter. It won't be until April that we start getting the propaganda leaflets coming through the door so they 'may' sway me one way or the other.

 

What I would want to see is information from an independant source, not those with an agenda.

 

I want to do what is best for the country, not for me. The money saved by not subsidising the EU could quite easily be spent in this country, getting two thirds back from the EU in subsidies and other projects doesn't sound right when we could spend 100% of it instead. The drawback is that instead of paying for the things the EU subsidise, the money could be spent on other things instead of it's true purpose. I feel any government will do this.

 

I don't trust the Tories, never have and as for labour, at the moment, they don't seem to have a cohesive two brains cell to put together. All political parties have an agenda so as I said, someone with no axe to grind will get my attention.

 

I hope this thread continues in the way it has. Reason, argument, counter argument: it is all interesting but without rancour.

[unclebulgaria67]

One big factor should be decisive.

 

Financial markets - your pensions - your investments etc

 

Brexit would cause a massive shock to international finance markets, as they hate uncertainty. It could be the domino that starts to topple all of the others. The UK is one of the biggest financial centres and London i understand does more Euro trading than any other finance hub. If there is uncertainty about the UK and Europe in general, it could mean that international investors look elsewhere in the world. Europe is already in a difficult position and I don't think it is a good idea to upset the applecart

[tobyjugg2]

EU In or Out Defense

 

Our defense is mainly via our membership of NATO, which will not change whether we are in or out of the EU. The yanks may not like out leaving the EU, but that would not change our NATO membership.

The only 'fear' here is that the US effectively ignores their NATO responsibilities, and we have no real reason to believe that would ever be the case (excluding Trump winning the presidency)

 

The UN Security council

The Uk's place in the security council is not dependent on the EU, nor is it even dependent on the UK being a nuclear power.

The only thing that might risk the UK's position is if the UK was no longer the UK, which SOME might argue would be the case if the UK broke up.

Even then, I dont believe the US or France would like any change in the UK's position in the security council as the UK is effectively a vote for them when they need it.

The Scottish issue is crucial here.

 

Migration.

This is a definite OUT generator from my perspective.

Again I somewhat disagree with Gen Jacksons opinion, as the EU migrant issue can easily be considered a DIRECT result of the EU and Shengen. If there were no EU open borders, or if the EU properly protected its external borders, the issue would not have escalated to anything like it is today.

There is no sign whatsoever of the EU addressing these issues cohesively or effectively, despite the clear indications that worse may yet be to come.

[unclebulgaria67]

Migration and EU. A huge border externally and internally. Would take a huge number of Police or guards to cover it. It would cost a fortune, money which most countries don't have. If they were all independent, the same position would exist. It is not as if Europe is at war. These are refugees and economic migrants.

 

The EU does have joint security cooperation in terms of intelligence sharing, arrest warrant. On Brexit it does not mean an end to this, but it means 28 different arrangements.

 

NATO will still be there for main strategic defence. But future wars could well be terrorist related with different cells operating across many different countries. The EU policies of cooperation might help bring different countries together.

[tobyjugg2]

Migration and EU. A huge border externally and internally. Would take a huge number of Police or guards to cover it. It would cost a fortune, money which most countries don't have. If they were all independent, the same position would exist.

 

Introducing border controls IS what is happening, border control IS happening at Calais,

 

but the point was that if there were border controls, even quite low level ones, the situation would almost certainly not have escalated as it did

- its the entirely open borders, and the laws the migrants were 'entitled to' once in the EU whether entitled to be there or not that is the what made it possible and dangerous to the EU

 

 

 

One big factor should be decisive.

 

Financial markets - your pensions - your investments etc

 

Brexit would cause a massive shock to international finance markets, as they hate uncertainty. It could be the domino that starts to topple all of the others. The UK is one of the biggest financial centres and London i understand does more Euro trading than any other finance hub. If there is uncertainty about the UK and Europe in general, it could mean that international investors look elsewhere in the world. Europe is already in a difficult position and I don't think it is a good idea to upset the applecart

 

I think that house of cards is better upset sooner rather than collapsing again and again later.

[unclebulgaria67]

Introducing border controls IS what is happening, border control IS happening at Calais,

 

but the point was that if there were border controls, even quite low level ones, the situation would almost certainly not have escalated as it did

- its the entirely open borders, and the laws the migrants were 'entitled to' once in the EU whether entitled to be there or not that is the what made it possible and dangerous to the EU

 

I think that house of cards is better upset sooner rather than collapsing again and again later.

 

Borders were open for EU flights, internal travel. When millions migrate any system would struggle. I don't think EU has made any difference to the situation.

 

The EU is still one of the biggest consumer markets and was doing OK until the world finance system had a heart attack. Don't make a decision based on such a small time frame. EU has succesfully expanded and in time could recover very well. The austerity policies have led to a downward spiral which is difficult to get out of. Once countries start doing better, people will migrate back,

[tobyjugg2]

Once countries start doing better, people will migrate back,

 

Only if they believe they would be significantly better of doing so - which I firmly believe few would ever think let alone be.

Syria etc will be rebuilt by the people there and/or whoever the major powers give the contracts to.

[Conniff]

So what you're saying is that citizens shouldn't do their homework and think with their own head but vote according to propaganda leaflets?

 

Well, Sir or Madam, I disagree!

 

You could only do homework back then by either reading the papers or leaflets that came through the door or writing to your MP - fat lot of good any of them would have been in enlightening.

 

So how did you do your homework in the early 70s ??

[unclebulgaria67]

Some of the media who are pro Brexit are playing games to fool people.

 

See the second graph in this article, where they are trying to get the image of an increasing leave support into the publics minds.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3492874/Brexit-edge-referendum-battle-voters-likely-turn-David-Cameron-s-election-mastermind-declares-studying-new-polls.html

 

I find this behaviour quite sinister. The owners of the Daily Mail obviously have an interest in Brexit, which has nothing to do with the ordinary people in the UK.

[tobyjugg2]

Some of the media who are pro Brexit are playing games to fool people.

 

See the second graph in this article, where they are trying to get the image of an increasing leave support into the publics minds.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3492874/Brexit-edge-referendum-battle-voters-likely-turn-David-Cameron-s-election-mastermind-declares-studying-new-polls.html

 

I find this behaviour quite sinister. The owners of the Daily Mail obviously have an interest in Brexit, which has nothing to do with the ordinary people in the UK.

 

 

I understand your point on this unclebulgaria, but show me anyone on either side that isn't doing this sort of thing, let alone someone on any side who is giving COMPLETE, unbiased clear and straight facts.

 

How about the following as a stay in sweetener

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.mmnews.de/index.php/wirtschaft/47528-dexit-deutschland-raus&prev=search

[citizenB]

Some of the media who are pro Brexit are playing games to fool people.

 

See the second graph in this article, where they are trying to get the image of an increasing leave support into the publics minds.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3492874/Brexit-edge-referendum-battle-voters-likely-turn-David-Cameron-s-election-mastermind-declares-studying-new-polls.html

 

I find this behaviour quite sinister. The owners of the Daily Mail obviously have an interest in Brexit, which has nothing to do with the ordinary people in the UK.

 

What I find sinister is the large multi national companies who want to stay in are allowing their premises to be used as platforms for David Cameron to pimp his Remain campaign. This is not democratic, it pressures the employees into thinking their jobs might be at risk so they must vote the way their Chief Executive wants them to !

 

Why does IDS (Brexit) say we are MORE at risk of a Paris Style attack if we stay in and the Cameron Crew say we are less secure if we leave ?

 

I want to see a more reasoned debate on the issues not self interest propaganda or the promotion of fear of loss of jobs, terrorists, etc.

[unclebulgaria67]

CB

 

I don't think we will get a reasoned debate. One side will say one thing is true and the other side will say the opposite.

 

I don't understand people problems with the EU, unless they have suffered personally from an EU policy e.g common fisheries policy causing them to lose their fishing rights. But even if UK were independent most fishing is done in international waters and there would be international agreements in place to stop over fishing.

 

I think people have been fed anti EU stories in the media for so long, that they have been brain washed. James O'Brien has done phone ins on the EU on LBC and every time, few examples of bad EU policies are raised. The common issues raised are less powerful electrical appliances for energy reasons, food complying to certain standards and human rights. These are issues that would arise in most western countries whether EU or independent. They are not compelling reasons to end a relationship that has existed for 40 years.

 

Nb. I agree about business trying to influence workers. They should avoid that.

[Conniff]

CB

 

I don't think we will get a reasoned debate. One side will say one thing is true and the other side will say the opposite.

 

I don't understand people problems with the EU, unless they have suffered personally from an EU policy e.g common fisheries policy causing them to lose their fishing rights. But even if UK were independent most fishing is done in international waters and there would be international agreements in place to stop over fishing.

 

I think people have been fed anti EU stories in the media for so long, that they have been brain washed. James O'Brien has done phone ins on the EU on LBC and every time, few examples of bad EU policies are raised. The common issues raised are less powerful electrical appliances for energy reasons, food complying to certain standards and human rights. These are issues that would arise in most western countries whether EU or independent. They are not compelling reasons to end a relationship that has existed for 40 years.

 

Nb. I agree about business trying to influence workers. They should avoid that.

 

We can never have a reasoned debate unless some reasoning is put before us. So far I have seen absolutely no reasons why we should leave and no reasons why we should stay.

When we get those, then we can start to debate the ins and the outs of those reasons.

 

It's no good to say things like 'business will suffer', where has it been shown, show us the proof.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Conniff

[silverfox1961]

I found this earlier in regards to business and Europe. I felt it was quite a reasonable article

 

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=d10a91e3-854e-40ee-a2bc-87bc7acafcb5

[citizenB]

I found this earlier in regards to business and Europe. I felt it was quite a reasonable article

 

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=d10a91e3-854e-40ee-a2bc-87bc7acafcb5

 

Except I didnt understand any of it ?

[tobyjugg2]

Except I didnt understand any of it ?

 

It says if we exit, we will probably (almost certainly) still need to meet all EU competition and trading requirements if we wished to trade with the EU, but wouldn't have any internal EU say in those EU regulations.

 

eg they wont let us sell fish to them fished outside their regulations giving an unfair advantage to our fishermen, or allow products to be imported manufactured by slave labour and with toxic chemicals dumped into rivers against EU regs (despite all the chinese products sold in the EU)

 

 

But dont forget that a UK vote is only significant in the EU even while we are 'a member' if there is a major split on policy among the other EU nations and we were prepared to negotiate our interests in that area for other issues rather than vote based on that issue alone.

[tobyjugg2]

Belgium expels EU citizens who are a 'burden' on social security

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2014-000335+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

 

http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/can-unemployed-eu-citizens-be-expelled.html

[buckthorn]

Cameron is an idiot. The Brexit vote has wider political implications which could prove to be a nightmare, if people vote for Brexit.

 

Retired General Mike Jackson discusses some of the issues in the article linked to.

 

N. Irish Unionists are for Brexit, because they see it as cementing N.Irelands future within the UK. There would not be the EU considerations, where they are cooperating fully with the Irish government who would be backed by the EU. If the troubles start up again in N.Ireland, it will be the sense of national identity being stirred up again, as to whether people look to Dublin or London.

 

I find it rather hypocritical that one minute you run the Mail down, and yet when it suits you quote it as the truth.

[buckthorn]

There’s a saying once bitten twice shy, the country was conned into

voting to stay in the common market, (not given the relevant information

to make a rational judgement so it’s no good saying people should have

done their homework, information was just not made available deliberately

to keep the general public in the dark).

 

Key elements of our constitution are 1.-freedom under the law to do whatever

is not explicitly forbidden; 2.-independence of the judiciary; 3.-the presumption of innocence;

4.-the right of an accused person to be faced by his accuser and to cross-examine him/her.

None of these are compatible with European practices.

 

If you don’t believe this statement, (I am sure there are some who will say load of rubbish) try arguing against this.

 

See:- http;//eurealist.co.uk/?p=676

[Conniff]

Jean-Claude Juncker is an arch federalist who wants deeper integration and intends to continue to remove National powers from member states.

 

He said:

 

“So the time has come to deepen European integration instead of re-introducing national divisions.”

 

“We have to deepen economic and monetary union for a simple reason: Our monetary union is not optimal. We have an independent central bank. But we don’t have a European government. So we have to have rules to replace the non-existent European government,”

 

He also wants to increase the powers of the Commission against the representative of the members states in the Council so that the commission is again the political driver in Brussels.

 

Just to be clear this is the same man who said:

 

“When it becomes serious, you have to lie.”

 

“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to bring attention to that?”

 

“If it’s a Yes, we will say ‘on we go,’ and if it’s a No we will say ‘we continue.'” With regard to the French Referendum

 

“Those countries that vote No must vote again… to obtain the right answer.”

 

 

Link

[tobyjugg2]

There’s a saying once bitten twice shy, the country was conned into

voting to stay in the common market, (not given the relevant information

to make a rational judgement so it’s no good saying people should have

done their homework, information was just not made available deliberately

to keep the general public in the dark).

 

By both sides

 

 

Key elements of our constitution are 1.-freedom under the law to do whatever

is not explicitly forbidden;

 

Like peacefully protest without being charged with 'not giving your name' when harassed even when there is mo evidence of you doing wrong

 

 

2.-independence of the judiciary;

 

Like the persecution of a whistelblower via the UK courts improper implementation of an improper EAW

 

3.-the presumption of innocence;

 

See above and below

 

 

4.-the right of an accused person to be faced by his accuser and to cross-examine him/her.

 

Like the anonymity of those accusing people of rape, when the un-convicted and often un-evidenced accused are named

[tobyjugg2]

Well, I think the fear campaign has actually eventually done it for me,

 

The fear that Boris, IDS and Ress-Moog would rise in power as unholy trinity to run the country on the strength of a Brexit outweighs any other fears by far, perhaps even the potential for Turkey holding the EU council presidency.

 

I'm now an in voter

 

(and I'm not joking)

[buckthorn]

I don’t think we can afford to me members of the EU.

 

There are almost 2 million people unemployed in the UK.

Young people are suffering with the worst youth unemployment

rate for 20 years; and half a million of them are without jobs.

 

Up and down this country, there are people going hungry,

queuing up at food banks, and not getting the proper health care

that they need.

 

Yet, what is the British Government doing?

 

Sending £17 billion a year of YOUR money to the European Union.

[buckthorn]

Mass immigration will destroy this country.

Outside the EU, we have the power to choose who comes into the UK.

 

A huge number of migrants from Eastern Europe have come to our country

in the last decade, putting pressure on our scarce resources of schools, housing

the transport network and the jobs market.

 

While members of the EU we have no say over the quantity or qualifications of

the EU citizens who come here.

 

EU mass immigration means free healthcare, and access to UK benefits for many

non-contributors. Are you happy with that? I know I’m not.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Andyorch
edited