Horizon PCN **CANC'D**

[mechsman]

Hi all,

 

 

Today I (along with many others by the look of it) received a "parking charge notice" (cleverly abbreviated to PCN) from a company called Horizon parking.

 

 

There is no charge for parking in the car park and it is in a retail park. Notice alleges overstay of the 3 hour limit. Charge is £70 if paid within 28 days or £40 if paid within 14 days.

 

 

What do I do with it? I'm aware that times have changed since the standard response of "give it a stiff ignoring" was the most suitable course of action. Can I have some advice please?

 

 

Thanks in advance.

[armadillo71]

I am assuming this was a NTD?

 

If so, and you are the RK, then you wait for the NTK in the post.

 

And have a read of the forum...

[armadillo71]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?405805-PPC-Successes-(No-Questions-please)/page7

[ericsbrother]

Yes, wait for the Notice to Keeper that has to arrive between 29 and 56 days after the event. Any sooner or later and then there is no keeper liability under the PoFA. As they dont know who the driver was at the time this means that errors in procedure can damage their claim so dont be contacting them.

[mechsman]

NTD = notice to driver?

 

If so, yes, it was stuck on the window in a little sticky envelope thing.

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

I agree with the above statements as to waiting for the NTK. Horizon are members of the BPA (British Parking Association) and as such must follow the code of practice laid down by them. In reality, some don't and rely on a persons ignorance of civil law and make you think this is a fine. As you know, it's not.

 

Did you overstay? By how long did you overstay? I'm thinking that if you went over the limit by just a few minutes and they did not allow a 'grace period'

 

According to the Parking Pranksters website Horizon took no court action in 2014/15 against non payers which speaks volumes.

 

As soon as the NTK comes, nothing much you can do apart from going back to the site and taking pictures of the signs (which may help)

[honeybee13]

NTD = notice to driver?

 

If so, yes, it was stuck on the window in a little sticky envelope thing.

 

Hello there.

 

If you have a look at Armadillo's or Silverfox's signatures, they have links to the forum stikky with all the abbreviations.

 

HB

[mechsman]

The car was parked there in excess of the 3 hours (went back and had a look for the signs).

 

I have been parking in that particular car park for over a year and had zero issues.

 

This is obviously a new company on the park trying it on (control of that car park has gone through at least 2 companies that I can think of so far).

 

Honeybee: got it, thanks.

[mechsman]

Oh by the way, I have dashcam footage of that particular car park and the route into it. Would anybody be interested in playing spot the signs?

[ericsbrother]

a pretty good argument when appealing to the adjudicator but wasted on the operator as they arent in the business of cutting off their noses.

[mechsman]

The car has had a couple more tickets on the same car park since the first one. Out of interest, should the Parking company be paying per ticket to get the RK's details from the dvla?

 

If the NTK comes before the 28 days what is the standard response? (I understand that the 56 day limit is out of time, but not sure about the 28 day bit)

 

Interestingly, one day when the car was driven out before the 3 hours were up, around the roundabout and then immediately reparked (in a different space) no ticket was issued, which makes me think that they haven't got anpr as their signs claim. How does it stand with the company lieing about anpr on the signs?

[ericsbrother]

Yes, they have to apply for each event as the car may have been sold or hired.

 

If the NTK arrives too soon there is no keeper liability as they haven't given the driver sufficient time to consider. The timings are set by law so that is that.

 

They don't actually need ANPR to take advantage of para 9 of their PoFA,

they just have to decide which they are going to do,

ticket or remote operation.

 

If they choose the latter they must supply evidence of the event by way of photographs or the like, a bloke signing a letter isn't good enough.

 

An ANPR system could determine that going in past a particular camera starts the clock on an event and passing by a different camera stops the clock

 

Parking Lie prefer not to use this type of logging as they can then fiddle their numbers.

They have been caught out many times but until someone forces them to answer upon pain of prosecution they will keep saying it was an error, sorry about that, just a one-off that wont happen again and then carry on as before.

[mechsman]

So, further update. I received a "reminder notice" from horizon today. Reminder of what I'm not sure, as this is the first letter I have received, so I am assuming that I treat this as the NTK. Charge increased to £70.

 

 

Notice states a parking charge notice (subsequently abbreviated to PCN to imitate an official PENALTY charge notice funnily enough) given on the 2nd September and NTK received 10th Oct, so timelines correct? Next step presumably is to write back to them (via email?) on the grounds that they are talking rubbish and have no right to demand etc. Is there an example text somewhere? I'm guessing I should also demand a popla code?

[ericsbrother]

what exactly does the letter say as from what you infer it is not compliant with the notice requirements for the PoFA. That means you wait for the proper notice and the clock is still ticking. Do not remind them they are getting things wrong, let them screw it up and then tell them if they still continue to write to you.

Post up the letter and we will comment as to its validity.

[mechsman]

Hopefully the scans should be below/attached. I have redacted ref numbers/reg/time (but not date) and any name reference. I think I got them all.

[armadillo71]

As this is the first correspondence received by the RK, then it should be treated as the NTK .

 

It is not compliant with schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 so there is no keeper liability for the charge....

 

It also states that you MUST give the name and address of the driver when appealling the charge, which of course is not true and should not be done.

 

It is up to you how to word the initial appeal to horizon - throw lots of reasons why you, the RK, is not liable, or just a simple ' the NTK is not compliant with the POFA '.

Either way will almost certainly end up with a rejection and ( should be ) a POPLA code.

[mechsman]

As this is the first correspondence received by the RK, then it should be treated as the NTK .

 

It is not compliant with schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 so there is no keeper liability for the charge....

 

It also states that you MUST give the name and address of the driver when appealling the charge, which of course is not true and should not be done.

 

It is up to you how to word the initial appeal to horizon - throw lots of reasons why you, the RK, is not liable, or just a simple ' the NTK is not compliant with the POFA '.

Either way will almost certainly end up with a rejection and ( should be ) a POPLA code.

 

Yep, I as the rk, have no intention of providing the drivers details.

 

Having searched and read schedule 4 of pofa 12, I am struggling to pick out exactly where they are none compliant with this letter, other than it doesn't say ntk on it. Would you mind clarifying please?

 

Thanks

[armadillo71]

Yep, I as the rk, have no intention of providing the drivers details.

 

Having searched and read schedule 4 of pofa 12, I am struggling to pick out exactly where they are none compliant with this letter, other than it doesn't say ntk on it. Would you mind clarifying please?

 

Thanks

 

Does it mention the POFA any where?

 

Does it mention the period of parking?

 

Does it identify the creditor?

 

That's three reasons....

 

8(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph*6(1)(a)*is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

 

(2)The notice must—

 

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

 

(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;

 

©state that a notice to driver relating to the specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice as required by paragraph*7(2)(b),*©*and*(f);

 

(d)if the unpaid parking charges specified in that notice to driver as required by paragraph*7(2)©*have been paid in part, specify the amount that remains unpaid, as at a time which is—

 

(i)specified in the notice to keeper, and

 

(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));

 

(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

 

(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

 

(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

 

(f)warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—

 

(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph © or (d)) has not been paid in full, and

 

(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

 

the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

 

(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;

 

(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;

 

(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (if it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).

 

(3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).

 

(4)The notice must be given by—

 

(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

 

(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

 

(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given.

 

(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

 

(7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph*10.

 

(8)In sub-paragraph*(2)(g)*the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—

 

(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and

 

(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

[mechsman]

Many thanks.

 

I intend to email them along the following lines:

 

To whom it may concern.

 

With regards correspondence received against your ref xxxxxx,although not labelled as such i am treating your letter ref yyyy as an attempted notice to keeper.

 

Your letter is not in compliance with the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, and therefore there is no keeper liability in this case. Your letter is also factually incorrect in its assertions as to what the registered keeper must provide.

 

Regards

Xxx

 

Does that sound reasonable?

[armadillo71]

Add that you were not the driver at the time of the event, or that no assumptions can or should be made as to the driver at the time of event.

 

Out of interest, how has this happened?

 

The car has had a couple more tickets on the same car park since the first one. Out of interest, should the Parking company be paying per ticket to get the RK's details from the dvla?

[mechsman]

Add that you were not the driver at the time of the event, or that no assumptions can or should be made as to the driver at the time of event.

 

Out of interest, how has this happened?

 

 

 

Got it, response sent.

 

 

That happened because the car was parked there a couple of days in a row and it appears that a new company are trying to assert themselves on the park.

 

 

Incidentaly, I've noticed (while visiting the retail park) a couple of what appear to be anpr cameras have gone up at the entrance, as well as a load of new signs for the parking company. How would I find out if they had the relevant planning permission? I recall seeing a notice for erection of several none lit advertising hordings, but not for the cameras.

[mechsman]

Just had an automated reply from the appeal email address. Text as follows:

 

 

Thank you for your email.

 

Your appeal or communication has not yet been read but we are acknowledging that we have received it. Please

read the information below carefully and either wait to hear from us or respond with the information requested

 

If you are appealing a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) in order for us to respond to your appeal fully it is essential that you provide your 6 digit charge reference number and that your reference number is typed correctly.If the reference is incorrect we cannot resolve your appeal and the PCN will continue to progress. Please ensure you have provided your reference number.

Should your appeal be supported by any evidence, please also ensure this is forwarded.

 

When all the required information is received the PCN will be placed on hold until we have replied to your appeal.

 

If you need to resubmit an appeal because you have failed to quote your 6 digit PCN reference number or you wish to attach any further evidence please do so. Otherwise we will aim to respond to your communication within 14 days, but certainly no more than 35 days. Please wait to hear from us during this period.

 

If you were not the driver (or had sold/hired the vehicle) at the relevant time, and have not already done so, please provide us with the driver's full name and address so that we may transfer liability.

 

Payment of your notice can be made by debit/credit card using the following;

Website - www.pay.horizonparking.co.uk

Phone - 0845 643 5304

Or by cheque forwarded to;

Horizon Parking, Waterhouse Business Centre, Cromar Way, Chelmsford, CM1 2QE

[ericsbrother]

I wouldnt worry about asking for planning permission at this stage, you dont want to show them your cards. As another company used to "manage" the parking when it gets to POPLA you demand sight of the contract between Horizon and the landowner that assigns the right to make claims as you belive that no such contract exists because parking is managed by xxxxx and therefore you require strict proof of this.

Even if they have a contract they are often flawed as can be seen when you look at other cases such as one where ANPR just placed their letterhead over the top of another company's logo to claim a contract existed. I'm surprised the judge didnt gaol them for contempt of court but it barely got a rebuke.

[mechsman]

Just to update, 2 more letters in the post. Identical to the first but with different ref numbers and different dates. Copied and pasted the email letter I did before with updated ref numbers. Got 2 more automated email replies. Currently no response to my first one either.

[mechsman]

Got another one. Reply sent and acknowledgement email received. Out of interest, how long do they have to respond before the kepper liability times out?