ParkingEye ANPR PCN PAPLOC Now Claimform - New Directions Holdings, Lambourne Crescent, Llanishen, Cardiff, CF14 5GL ***Claim Discontinued***

[Cardiff Devil]

Hi all.

Not my first PCN but my first time dealing with ParkingLie, and it's a bit of a strange one.

Currently teaching my GF to drive in my vehicle.  Our local driving test centre is on a big industrial park with loads of offices and warehouses.  We go up there in the evenings and it's almost completely empty, so plenty of room for pottering about.  

She pulled into a small car park just off the main road to practice 3-point turns.  The car park belongs to a company called New Directions Holdings which according to Google closes at 5pm.  We entered the car park at 6.28pm which by then was totally empty.  

I did notice some parking signs but they appeared to state that pay & display charges are only applicable on Saturdays and Sundays, and because this was a Wednesday evening I just disregarded it and we carried on.  

We exited the car park at 6.38pm and went on our merry way.

A few days ago I then received an ANPR PCN from ParkingEye stating that we now owed them £100 for spending 10 minutes in their lovely empty car park.

I went back up there last night to take a closer look at the signage (which I had to get out of the car to go and read).  Apparently it's "patrons only" between Monday-Friday and becomes a pay & display car park on the weekends for some reason.  The "patrons" are meant to go and enter their reg numbers on a computer in reception but obviously this was not an option as the office was closed and locked up.  

The letter states that the maximum allowed stay time without entering your reg number is 0 hours and 0 minutes, so if you enter after the business is closed, even if it's to post a letter through the door, you're apparently buggered.  The signage isn't visible from outside the car park either so if you drive in by mistake, even if you turn around and drive straight back out again, gotcha.  

Obviously I'm looking to challenge this but as I've never dealt with anyone as litigious as ParkingLie before.

My line of thinking is;

No 10 minute grace period as I'm sure they have to offer under the BPA code of practice.

We weren't actually parked in there at any point. 

No losses sustained as the car park was empty and the premises was closed.

From what I've read the method of attack is to file a one liner appeal to PE get access to POPLA, and go from there?

Any other thoughts?

Cheers

CD

[Nicky Boy]

Hi Devil,

First, do not appeal!

You've probably read that advice elsewhere.

Second, please fill out the sticky so the guys can advise...

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[Cardiff Devil]

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture]

(must be received within 14 days from the Incident)

 

Please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement 23rd May 2023

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 27th May 2023
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide] please LEAVE IN LOCATION AND ALL DATES/TIMES/£'s

 

3 Date received 1st June 2023
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Yes
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] No
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up N/A
 

7 Who is the parking company? Parking Eye

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] New Directions Holdings, Lambourne Crescent, Llanishen, Cardiff, CF14 5GL
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. BPA

Just to clarify why is the advice no longer to appeal? 

I was not the driver and can safely appeal to PE and POPLA as the registered keeper only without disclosing who was driving.

PE_NTK - Redacted.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

You're lucky, the PE PCN does not comply with the protection of Freedoms Act 2012.  They mostly do comply but there are a few that don't and yours doesn't. The reason is that they have not given you the option  of paying the PCN  yourself. Because they  have not done that ,you as keeper are no longer liable for the charge. As they don't know who was driving they are pretty well stuck other than pursuing you on the dubious assumption that you were the driver.

It would be helpful to your case if you could please post up photographs of their signage. They say they have entrance signs  which would be good if we could see it as quite often the entrance sign does not offer a contract.  

You are right that as the place is shut there is no loss.  What it also means that there is no legitimate interest involved for PE  keeping the car park clear so trying to charge £100 is a penalty.

If the car park is Permit holders only then no contract can be formed with you because the signs are prohibitory. There is also frustration of contract as you were unable to obtain a permit as well as you would be regarded as trespassing  and only the owner can sue for trespass.

There is also the fact that you were not parked there. You may have been driving around but that is not parking.

Not sure about the 10 minute grace period as there was never a parking period to start with but you have enough to get out of paying a penny whether the 10 minutes are included or not.

 

 

[Cardiff Devil]

Thanks LFI

Yes, the car park signage is very strange. 

Permit only during the week and Pay & Display (via a phone app) on the weekends, apparently.

  I have photos of the signs in the car park itself but like a numpty I forgot to get a picture of the sign at the entrance. 

I didn't even notice it at first because it's largely obscured by the branches of a tree but I'll more than likely be going up to that area again later this week so I'll grab that while I'm up there next.

I can't upload JPEGs so is the best way to upload the signs to paste them into a PDF and upload that?

Pictures of signage attached.  Entrance sign to follow in a couple of days hopefully.

Car Park Signage.pdf

[brassnecked]

Might well have shot themselves in the foot with that signage, its ambiguous in some respects and confusing requiring payment by phone only at certain periods.

[Nicky Boy]

To answer your question about not appealing...

Succesful appeals are extremely rare.

You don't want to give away clues about what you might use in a witness statement if they're stupid enough to try court later on.

Jumping through their various made up hoops will encourage them to pester you as an easy mark.

[Cardiff Devil]

I know parking companies almost never allow appeals, as it's not in their interests to do so, but I've had much better success in the past with POPLA.   I was always under the impression that just ignoring them, save for actual court papers wasn't recommended.

So is it just a case of sitting tight and seeing if they send a PAPLOC and then a court claim, or is there anything I can do in the meantime?

 

[Nicky Boy]

At the PAPLOC stage (if it happens) you send a "snotty letter".

This lets them know that they won't be getting a backdoor CCJ and  you won't be a simple pushover.

Just save all the paperwork they and their minions send you.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[Cardiff Devil]

Gotcha.  I'll sit tight until then.  

Do ParkingLie forward the info on to any scummy DCAs, or do they just ramp up the threat-o-grams until the PAPLOC stage?

[Nicky Boy]

Yes, they will instruct DCA's.

Read up a few other threads, so you know what to expect. 

[Cardiff Devil]

Morning Ladies and Germs.

Just a quick update as promised.  I was at this site again last night so I grabbed two photos of the sign at the entrance to the car park.  As mentioned previously it's partially obscured by tree branches and I didn't even notice it at first when I was taking the pictures of the other signs.

Interesting how the entrance sign invites you into the car park to read the full terms and conditions on the other signs, even though if you decide not to accept them and to leave, too late, they've already got you.

Cheers

CD

Entrance Signage.pdf

[brassnecked]

Might well be non compliant with the trees obscuring it.

[Cardiff Devil]

Hello all.

Just thought I'd fill you in with the latest piece of hamster bedding from ParkingLie.

Continuing to ignore the grifters.

Cheers

CD

PE-Letter-Jul23_Redacted.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

Your post 5 said that the entrance sign was obscured by branches. I read recently of a case where the motorist had their PCN cancelled in Court precisely because the entrance sign was obscured.

I don't know if PE will take you to Court but that is one more  reason you can add to your list of why you shouldn't have to pay.

[Cardiff Devil]

Cheers LFI.  I think there's a pretty good chance that PE will try and play their hand in court.  They seem like one of the most litigious parking companies from what I've read and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't chance it.  

What tickles me the most is that the entrance sign I posted in post #13 invites you in to the car park to read the full terms and conditions, but if you decide, having read them not to accept them and leave, their lack of any grace period means there's already a penalty charge on it's way to you.  That in and of itself I reckon would get them laughed out of court and definitely will be followed by a complaint to the BPA if they decide to chance it.  

[lookinforinfo]

The BPA do have a five minute grace period but weirdly [and possibly unlawfully] if you decide to stay then they take away the grace period.  Even the IPC don't do that ! If you leave then they do grant you five minutes though not sure what happens if it takes two minutes to get out the car park and you were already four minutes in the car park.

The BPA Code of Conduct for entrance signs is at 19.2 of their handbook.

At best it should contain the T&Cs or at least have a standardised entrance sign. This one is even an entrance sign nor does it advise that motorists are entering private land and there is no BPA logo on it.

Whatever else you can say about the BPA [and one could say a lot-mostly derogatory] the one thing you can't deny is there sense of humour as you can see at point 19.7 You should display the BPA’s AOS logos at all sites. This will help the public to see that you are a legitimate operator, and show that the site is run properly.

[Cardiff Devil]

Morning folks.

Looks like PE have decided to skip the DCA and solicitor threat-o-grams and have sent a Letter Before Claim of their own.  

Please see attached.  I'm guessing we're now at the "snotty letter" phase?

They've also attached some kind of debt questionnaire which as far as I can tell is just something they've whipped up themselves and isn't part of anything official for the court.  I tried attaching that but it went over the size limit.  I'll keep trying.

Thanks

CD

PE-LBC_Redacted.pdf

 

[lookinforinfo]

The signage at the entrance, by stating that the T&Cs are inside the car park, cannot form a contract with motorists. It is only an offer to treat.

[FTMDave]

Yep, snotty letter time.

[Cardiff Devil]

Cheers LFI & Dave.  

I'll have a look around the forum for some other examples and come back when I've penned something.  I'm not going to lie, I've actually been quite looking forward to this stage where I can break my wall of silence and tear a strip off them.

Thanks

CD

[honeybee13]

Good for you.   Just let us see what you plan to send so we can help you to refine it.

HB

[Cardiff Devil]

How's this for a first draft;

 

Dear Parking Eye

 

I am writing with regards to your letter dated 02/08/2023 headed “LETTER BEFORE COUNTY COURT CLAIM”.

I have been following your trail of letters with a hint of faint amusement.  If you really think that spending 10 minutes in a totally empty car park that you don’t even own somehow translates to me owing you £120, plus whatever further spurious charges you see fit to tack on, then you really are quite deluded.

Do you really not have anything better to do with your time than try and fleece hardworking people with these poorly disguised penalty charges?  

I know that your business model relies on ill-informed people simply caving in and paying up when your “scary” paperwork arrives through the post.  Please note though that I am not one of those people.  I am not intimidated by your empty threats and rest assured I fully intend to defend myself at court if you choose to take that course of action.  

Oh, and for the avoidance of any doubt, since I know you’ll probably just disregard this letter and proceed with a civil claim anyway, I will be following up my defence to the court with an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14 (2) (g).

 

Your move.

 

Yours 

Cardiff Devil

[honeybee13]

I think that's a good first draft. Let's see what the guys think. 

HB

[FTMDave]

I always find writing a snotty letter a bit difficult, you can't just tell them to Foxtrot Oscar, you have to show you know their case is pants ...

... while at the same time not play all your cards too early.  Not easy.

They must know they are on dodgy ground with grace periods, so hinting that you might know this by mentioning the 10-minute stay is spot on.  As is coming out with "poorly disguised penalty charge".

Well done!

Two miniscule tweaks.  In the second paragraph I would change "If you really think that spending 10 minutes" to "If you really think that a vehicle spending 10 minutes" as you don't want anything that might indicate you were the driver.

In the last paragraph change "I will be following up my defence to the court" to "I will be following up my victory in court" as that is the point when you would ask the judge for unreasonable costs.

Wait until the last day of the month or similar to send it, so you drag out the 30 days and show you're not scared of them.