Tribunal for a JSA sanction for not receiving a MWA letter

[Emma078]

Hi I'm after any advice

 

I have posted on here before about MWA I had been told to go to.

 

 

I was told to go to a charity shop and on the day my neighbour gave me a lift there,

 

 

I was late and the woman was horrible having a go at my neighbour and

I walked out embarrassed and ashamed (so was my neighbour - he was shocked that someone 'volunteering' would get spoken to like that)

I ended up getting a 13 week sanction

 

Then in April I was told to do MWA again.

 

 

I got a letter from learn direct saying they'd be in touch for me to come in and see them.

 

 

I signed on twice after that and was just asked if I'd heard anything yet to which I told them about the letter.

Then the day I supposed to get paid there was nothing in my bank.

 

 

I rang the jobcentre to be told I should of started MWA and I'd failed to turn up and told them I'd not had anything telling me to start.

It didn't matter I got a 13 week sanction.

 

I went to see the welfare person at the council who did a mandatory reconsideration

and I applied for hardship

 

I was then told to do MWA again, this time I got 2 letters telling me to start a charity shop on Monday (letters received Saturday)

but this was in a different town and I'm only getting £35 a week and bus fare was much more than this so I didn't go.

 

 

I've now received a 6 month sanction.

 

 

I have sent a mandatory reconsideration for this saying the guidance wasn't meet

- that I should have a timetable saying the hours. (but I know I wont win)

 

But the sanction for the letter not received has not been lifted.

I lost the mandatory reconsideration (which took about 2 months)

because a letter is deemed to have been received 2 days after posting.

 

The council welfare person has sent of for me to go to a tribunal which is next week

and he thinks i'll lose because of case law about receiving letters.

 

I have since spoke to other people who were sanctioned because of not receiving letters

and have had them lifted once they've done a mandatory reconsideration, so why's mine different.

 

 

I think they'll do this all the time now if they can get away with it.

I have to send any letters to the jobcentre recorded because of the amount of times they've said they've not received them

 

In the tribunal form which I have a copy of the jobcentre's response it says about the first sanction/mwa

- that I was late and refused to do any tasks?

 

 

it also says they overlooked the first sanction and now think I should be sanctioned for 6 months (for not receiving a letter!)

 

so now will this last sanction go from 6 months to 3 years? I can't live on £35 a week.

I am finding it really hard now.

I am minus £60 in my gas meter and i'm freezing,

my bed feels damp and smells musty when I get in it,

 

 

I would really love a hot bath (I must stink) and electric seems to be running out quicker

I have about £3 in that (emergency) which is to last till I get paid on Monday

 

Any advice anyone can give would be great, I don't know what to do

Sorry for the long post

[Mr.P]

I remember your original posts about that 'charity' shop quite well - Disgusted then, and disappointed at the response from the DWP.

 

About all I can suggest at the moment is to send a subject access request to the DWP demanding copies of all records held by them and any/all subcontractors, especially the ones handling the MWA placements. The SAR may well turn up a copy of this mysterious missing letter, but proving that you did not receive it is going to be difficult. Are you aware of any other problems with your post ?

For example, are there any addresses in your area that could be confused ?

 

As an example, in a city close by, we have two roads by the name of Broom Avenue, one in NR6, the other in NR7, a distance of just four miles. Unless the letter has a postcode, it is pot luck as to which house gets the delivery

 

It might be worthwhile contacting Royal Mail and asking if there are any issues that have been highlighted in the postman's "walk log" for your address - You may need to talk to your local delivery office rather than going through the RM help desk.

 

 

P.S. Have you seen this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?436146-Benefit-sanctions-Present-your-case-to-the-Select-Committee - I would urge you to make a submission to the select committee.

[speedfreek]

You want the postal logs from whoever sent the letter.

 

There's a thread on here Booths was it? But there's also a few threads on rightsnet about it.

 

Most non DWP postal logs log something but not what was sent nor a copy of what was sent - so on balance of probability at a tribunal you should win. Then there's always the off chance *cough* that nothing was sent at all.

[Emma078]

Thanks for your replies

 

 

In the response from the jobcentre to the tribunal is a copy of the letter that was sent, but the jobcentre has wrote they do not have the original and enclosed in a copy, which makes me think no letter was ever sent.

 

 

I do live in a apartment with a security door on the front of the building. The regular post man has a fob to get in, but if someone else is on they can't get in unless someone in the building lets him in. I've had post delivered in the past with 'no access' and the date written on them.

The welfare person at the council did fill in a lost letter form online with royal mail for the mandatory reconsideration

 

 

I will make a submission to the select committee, hopefully something will be done about these sanctions there giving everybody

 

 

I'll read the other threads see what info I can find

 

 

Does anyone know what tribunals are like?

[Mr.P]

I am finding it really hard now. I am minus £60 in my gas meter and i'm freezing, my bed feels damp and smells musty when I get in it, I would really love a hot bath (I must stink) and electric seems to be running out quicker I have about £3 in that (emergency) which is to last till I get paid on Monday

 

A damp, musty bed will do your health no good what so ever. You are at risk of some pretty unpleasant respiratory illnesses that could have long term consequences. Do you have any close friends or family in the area that can help ?

[MrMinaj13]

the fact the OP is going through this is absolutely disgusting.

what on earth has this country come to ?

[essexmat]

the fact the OP is going through this is absolutely disgusting.

what on earth has this country come to ?

 

Quite. Rather like the need for people to use food banks in the year 2014 and deciding whether to keep warm or eat - all basic human rights to be able to eat, have a roof over your head and keep warm. Blame Cameron, IDS, Osbourne and the rest of the unelected disgraceful Tory regime. The FACT is these welfare reforms ARE KILLING PEOPLE

[Mr.P]

But the sanction for the letter not received has not been lifted. I lost the mandatory reconsideration (which took about 2 months) because a letter is deemed to have been received 2 days after posting.

[...]

I have to send any letters to the jobcentre recorded because of the amount of times they've said they've not received them

 

Just to pick up on one point here. Whilst there is a presumption that a letter posted is deemed to have been delivered after two working days (if posted first class), the same rules should apply when sending letters to the DWP. They can not have it both ways.

 

For the record, Royal Mail do lose or damage letters. It is an inevitable part of the mechanised process used to sort the 14 Billion or so letters annually. There is also scope within the processes used by the DWP for letters to be lost before it even gets to a Royal Mail sorting office.

[SabreSheep]

Royal mail should publish "reported lost" letters figures somewhere

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/59152/response/144501/attach/html/3/Nandhra%20250111.pdf.html

 

http://www.royalmailgroup.com/search/google_cse_adv/complaints

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Hello Emma.

 

Have you got a date for your Tribunal Hearing yet, how much time have you got to prepare for it?

 

Could you describe a bit more about your first sanction, or alternatively post a link to the thread where you have already discussed it?

 

Specifically;

 

Who arranged the placement in that case?

 

Was there doubt about the proper procedure being followed in arranging the placement?

 

Why a 13 week sanction at that time? Was it not your first sanction within a year?

 

Did you appeal against this sanction?

[Mr.P]

LW: Emma's experience of the first MWA placement starts here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?383804-work-programme-after-2-years&p=4376501#post4376501. The letter detailing this placement is at post #836.

[Emma078]

Thanks Mr P for providing the link

 

 

My tribunal is tomorrow at 11am, wonder what will happen? I don't know how I can be punished because of not receiving a letter. Having to go court over this, it makes no sense.

 

 

I have been reading other threads on here about benefits and I'm horrified at what they can do to people

[Mr.P]

Fingers crossed, and hoping it goes well for you.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Thanks for the link Mr. P, reads like a horrific nightmare from the word go. Looks like the grounds for each of the sanctions are dubious,to say the least.

 

There's a lot to cover and hardly any time to cover it.

 

It would be helpful to know if the Tribunal Hearing is limited to the last sanction or can justification for all of them be addressed?

 

A bit more about what exactly is being appealed would be helpful in determining if the Tribunal is prepared to hear a statement regarding each of the sanctions.

 

A copy of the DWP's arguments to support it's position should have been sent to you, Emma, by the Tribunal. It would be helpful to know what their grounds are for fighting the Appeal, or which of the sanctions do they refer to or mention.

 

A couple of points for clarification on the first sanction:

 

Were any arrangements made for travel expences before the placement was due to start? Was it even mentioned?

 

When you got to the place was the person who verbally accosted you the person you were supposed to report to?

 

Was there an induction, or any mention of one? Was anyone from Learn Direct there when you arrived?

 

You say that you were taken into a back room and it was packed? was that with goods or people?

 

If people, were they all claimants starting MWA, or were there some shop employees there?

[caro]

As LW says, time is short but hopefully you'll get some help before morning. Just concentrate on the facts at the tribunal and don't be tempted to complain about the flaws in the system. Be respectful but remember you have right on your side so hold your head up and don't let anyone intimidate you. You know and we know you have done nothing wrong.

 

Good luck.

[Emma078]

Hi, I went today for the tribunal and it was just in a room sat at a table across from the judge, no one from DWP was there.

 

 

I've won it!

 

 

I've be given a letter of them which says:

1. The appeal is allowed

2. The decision is set aside

 

 

The tribunal accepts that the appellant did not receive the notice to participate and that is the reason that she did not attend. The tribunal considers that to be a good reason. There should be no sanction therefore based on her failure to attend

 

 

They said they would send the same letter to DWP

 

 

So it is worth fighting them, even though I don't think it should of gone this far in the first place over a letter.

 

 

I don't know what will happen now. I'm waiting to speak to the welfare person at the council, but shouldn't I get the money owed to me back and the sanction I'm on now changed from a 26 week sanction to a 13 week sanction?

[Nystagmite]

Congratulations!

 

DWP will now get a copy of the outcome of the tribunal. They will then look at that. They are able to appeal. But this is rare and can only do this on the basis of law. (ie, they can't appeal because they don't like it - same as everyone else)

 

You then will then receive a letter (I can't say how long this will be, what with Christmas and new year) which will explain the DWP's decision, given the above - ie, if they're going to appeal it or not.

 

If DWP don't appeal, you will get your money backdated.

[Emma078]

Thanks for that info

 

 

Hopefully they don't decide to appeal and everything goes ok. Suppose Its just a waiting game now, hope its sorted by the end of January I don't want to be waiting for months

[Emma078]

Thanks for that info

 

 

Hopefully they wont appeal and everything will get sorted out quickly, I don't want to be waiting for months

[Nystagmite]

It is rare for them to appeal. And, like I've said, it can only be done on a point of law and not because they don't like the outcome.

[caro]

Congratulations Emma. Let's hope they cough up as quickly as they impose sanctions!

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Congratulations and well done Emma.

 

Yes, this means that the sanction decision is set aside, which basically means it is cancelled because there was no sound argument put in defence of it.

 

In the DWP's submission to the Tribunal they will have set out the their case and the grounds on which they made their decision to sanction. (you should have a copy of that submission).

 

It is hardly likely that the DWP will appeal. The Tribunal could not have thought very much of their submission since they did not appear to regard it as worth mentioning. The Tribunal will also take a dim view of anyone showing their contempt for it by not even bothering to turn up to defend their actions.

 

This means that you will be receiving the 13 weeks benefits that has been withheld. As you say, it couldn't come at a better time.

 

The DWP seem to get away with stopping benefit payment almost before the claimant realises what is happening. They will probably not repay as fast though.

 

The DWP does not close down completely for the full Christmas and New Year holiday weeks, they just stop doing the usual signing on functions. If you do not hear from them by next Monday, using the same 2 day rule for receipt of letters that they clobber us with, you could go and see the local JC manager and insist on answers there and then, or leave a letter insisting on written answers asap.

 

As for the latest sanction. It may be worth considering fighting to have it quashed entirely, never mind having it reduced. If you read the grounds on which they arrived at the decision and on which they are defending their decision it may be possible to find grounds on which to test its veracity and legality. For example, do they use anything to do with the sanction that has now been set aside in their case for applying this current one? Have they followed what you now know as being the proper procedure in applying it?

[Emma078]

I have had a letter from the jobcentre today about the tribunal

 

 

It says:

 

 

About Your Jobseeker's Allowance Appeal

 

 

I am writing to tell you that we remain unable to pay you any jobseeker's allowance for the period 01/05/14 to 30/07/14. This is because we are applying for a statement of reasons from the Tribunals Service for the decision made on 15/12/14 and may appeal against the first-tier Tribunal's decision.

 

 

You have no right of appeal against this decision, However, if this decision causes you hardship please get in touch with us.

 

 

If your circumstances change it may affect the amount of benefit you get. Please tell us about any changes in your circumstances.

 

 

We will write to tell you what happens next. But if you want more information please get in touch with us. Our address and telephone number are at the top of this letter. An advice centre like Citizens Advice or a local law centre can also give you free advice.

 

 

Yours sincerely

Appeals Officer

 

 

The letter has come from Norwich Post Handling Site not my local jobcentre

Can't believe its still going on. If they had bothered to turn up at the tribunal they would of know the reasons I won the appeal

Wonder how long I'll be waiting now before I hear anything of them

[Mr.P]

As Nystagmite has pointed out, the DWP can only appeal a tribunal decision on a point of law. You have managed to convince the tribunal that on the balance of probability you did not receive the alleged letter, so there is little (if anything) the DWP can appeal against. It smacks of a delaying tactic with the sole intention to inflict further misery over the holiday period.

 

With many of the key staff taking time off over the next couple of weeks coupled with seasonal postal delays, it is unlikely a final decision will be made until the New Year.

[caro]

Oh for goodness sake what is the matter with these people? As Mr P says, these people seem to deliberately want to inflict misery, and I don't just mean in your case Emma. Anyone who has the audacity to stand up for their rights seems to be in their firing line. I guess it's down to the pressure front line staff are under to sanction people, but all these appeals, tribunals etc must cost more than just paying people what they're entitled to!!!!!

 

Rant over and sorry it's not quite over yet Emma.