Bailiff Acted without Instruction & Council Tax Admit Order Wrong

[SJC2014]

Hi

 

I had an issue, see previous thread, locked due to comments made by other members.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?434113-Incorrect-CT-Liability-Order-and-Bailiffs-Forced-to-Pay-it-by-Police(1-Viewing)-nbsp

 

I had an issue where council generated incorrect Liability Order stating I owed this much when I did not, it has took months and months, almost 10 in fact and they finally only 2 weeks ago stated they made a mistake and it would be resolved. Its all in the other thread.

 

Here lies my update.

 

After receiving my new Genuine Revised Council Tax bill on Friday morning amended to show the exact dates I actually lived in the property, actually what my outstanding balance was (stated genuine purely as someone on the other thread said I probably made bill on computer), this now differs somewhat to the liability Order they raised some time back after telling them it was wrong.

 

Basically my question for this is what can I do with regards the Order that was raised incorrectly, even when they knew it was? Obviously if i get a bill saying I owe this much, I will pay, but when you get a balance that is somewhat higher I will not pay it regardless, especially when they refuse to amend it for whatever reason.

 

My main pressing concern is where someone said Bailiff who entered my property aided by Police acted Lawfully. He stated he was informed by Council on Friday to proceed with order and collect Full amount Outstanding. Didn't show me proof, didn't show me ID, obviously didn't comply, called police and wasnt instructed by anyone.

 

Police arrived, basically made me pay exactly what he was asking for without any proof from him, just a slip of paper with 4 lines and total balance. If i didn't pay, take a car not belonging to us (bill of sale in partners name only) or my Business Assets failure to comply would result would be arrested for breach of peace. So had no option but to pay leaving me with hardly anything left.

 

Today I get informed after numerous calls over 5 hours that Council gave no instructions at all to bailiff company and that pending action wasn't being taken at present due to known error that had occurred which by this call had been rectified. So basically bailiff tried to come into property on a blatant lie, having police aide him in his so called lawful duty as they put it.

 

Now I have email today from council telling me that it has been sorted, how much is actually owed etc, also confirming that they didn't instruct any bailiff action and that as of 1st September as per received letter it was still on hold until further notice

 

So bailiff now definitely acted on his own accord with no instructions, lied to police who they based on his lie, aided him in forcing me to pay money I didn't have to or else I faced possibly arrest.

 

Basically if you read thread most is on there, just now can clarify that monies was owed, but left on my account to pay was £73 for the year.

 

Council apologised and said they will speak to Bailiff Company as they don't understand why he did this but all they could do is get them to refund the difference between the original debt on Liability Order and the Correct amount they revised it. Unfortunately their Fees are not our responsibility that goes to the bailiff so other than that that's all we can do but at least its sorted now and balance cleared and then obviously asked if I was now willing to pay outstanding for this years as refused to pay it from June when they were reluctant to fix their mistake. I did query why I had 2 council bill accounts instead of just amending address change on other one but said human error and its just one of those black friday cases that happens once in a while but not to worry as I have paid the balance at least.

 

I have already raised formal police complaint based on they actions of the Police Officers but also wondering if I have grounds for reporting a crime. The bailiff acted on his own authority and I was subject to intimidation by police and in some case blackmail in that if I didn't pay what he wanted regardless of whether right or wrong I could face possible arrest.

 

Also council state under no circumstances can an Order be revoked they can amend amount but it was still be enforceable. This should never of gotten to this stage in first place as they were told back in December, January and February that it was wrong and their notes on their system clarify my concerns but it was never actioned.

 

Who is right and who is wrong in all of this? Is liability Order correct and still valid? Can I not have back Bailiff £310 Fee? Was it theft? What ground if any are there towards Council, Bailiffs etc for all of this situation?

 

Note bank were no help and said can only do a chargeback(as some stated is option) once transaction is authorised and not still at pending and that may not constitute one, also fraud said no as I handed over my debit card regardless of circumstances.

 

I have had to keep my little one off school today due to all this hassle, and the ordeal has left my partner physically sick with whole ordeal and situation and I cant drive and cant afford taxi fares and this took more pressing matter to resolve.

 

Only thing been told so far is complain for maladministration on behalf of council and bailiffs action as for council to pick up on as they are their agents? What does this achieve in mean time??

 

I for one now have to try and sort out my p***ed off landlord who expected this today and who i cant tell exactly when will get rent!

 

Feel like phoning police and reporting it as crime as to me in some instances i believe it is

[i hate bailiffs]

Have you done anything that was mentioned in the other thread?

 

Written to council as a formally complaint?

 

What did your local MP have to say about it?

What about the local councillors say?

 

Or have you not bothered with that route

[ploddertom]

Some of what I am about to say may seem harsh but is meant more as a generalisation rather than pointing at yourself.

 

With Council Tax you are liable to pay the sum demanded regardless of circumstances. It is no defence to withhold payment while awaiting the result of a decision for Benefit calculation or other claim regardless of how it has arisen. Whilst any claim is processed you are supposed to still pay the sums demanded and as a priority debt it takes preference over many others you may have. If when your claim is finally settled you are in advance with payments they will be credited to your next bill or if requested can be repaid. Not the best way forward I know but that is essentially how the sysytem works and if you decide not to pay then the Council are within their rights to apply for a Liability Order and if granted and payment still not received to hand it on for a variety of Enforcement Action including Bailiffs.

 

You appear to have a lot of different issues and without causing offence we are only hearing your side of the story. I would be inclined to issue a Subject Access Request to the Council & Bailiffs - cost £10 each but check with Council as they may waive the fee. As far as the Police are concerned maybe a copy of the incident log and/or the attending Officers notes may help - it does sound however as if the Police have blindly followed what the Bailiff told them and sound as if they need retraining. I would think until you have some of this information then all you are going to get is similar to the other thread.

[SJC2014]

Have you done anything that was mentioned in the other thread?

 

Written to council as a formally complaint?

 

What did your local MP have to say about it?

What about the local councillors say?

 

Or have you not bothered with that route

 

Yes started it this evening, not getting far though. I spent most of today tieing up questions with answers, i.e bailiff instructions, amount outstanding, police procedure and involvement as without that everything was pointless. I spoke with a senior officers today regards police complaint, who sounded appalled at their behaviour, i think when I explained the correspodence from council, along with no action currently being taken due to their instruction, my new revised bill and then when explaining how it came about when they demanded that I allow him the keys to the car thts not mine to take and then bringing him in to take goods to the value or whatever he felt like, afterwards seemed slightly concerned, though afterwards police are police and don't really expect anything to happen much from complaint, it already mentioned regards police retraining from ploddertom that will more than likely be there excuse and will more than likely tell me they will look to preventing this happening in future.

 

With regards Local MP, I know I need to approach that one but currently trying to work out how, i understand how to formally complain and claim maladministration regars council, seems pretty self explanatory, just have to print the 40 pieces of correspondence there is with me giving the same info time and time again and then lack of any remedial action on there behalf. The council did state that reason why is seemed to rush through Liability order even though a discrepancy was noted was that they get audited and as it was a last years account into new financial year it was pushed forward with the rest, obviously to help with their figures I suppose.

 

Complaint about the bailiff personally is little more difficult as there are mentions in new 2014 bailiff rules about cars on finance but doesn't give clear indication on exactly what, also states items for business/employment use which were the other items he only wanted when he tried to gain entry into my office, both of which as far as I can tell are not allowed. Then the matter of acting with no instruction, no proof or signs of any paperwork. nd using Police presence to enforce only full payment.

 

But yes, local council, Local MP, Managing Director of Equita, Formal Complaint regards Bailiff to correct ombudsman and to his employer, and then formal complaint regards the whole mess being esclated by police and their enforcement. If they had just left tell him to go on his way as he wasnt acting at time on behalf of council in that I already knew day before roughly how much I owe and then left it with me to sort as stated first thing monday which I did, none of this would occurred and I would of cleared the outstanding balance on my account, less the fees from bailiffs.

Edited October 6, 2014 by SJC2014

[SJC2014]

Some of what I am about to say may seem harsh but is meant more as a generalisation rather than pointing at yourself.

 

With Council Tax you are liable to pay the sum demanded regardless of circumstances. It is no defence to withhold payment while awaiting the result of a decision for Benefit calculation or other claim regardless of how it has arisen. Whilst any claim is processed you are supposed to still pay the sums demanded and as a priority debt it takes preference over many others you may have. If when your claim is finally settled you are in advance with payments they will be credited to your next bill or if requested can be repaid. Not the best way forward I know but that is essentially how the sysytem works and if you decide not to pay then the Council are within their rights to apply for a Liability Order and if granted and payment still not received to hand it on for a variety of Enforcement Action including Bailiffs.

 

You appear to have a lot of different issues and without causing offence we are only hearing your side of the story. I would be inclined to issue a Subject Access Request to the Council & Bailiffs - cost £10 each but check with Council as they may waive the fee. As far as the Police are concerned maybe a copy of the incident log and/or the attending Officers notes may help - it does sound however as if the Police have blindly followed what the Bailiff told them and sound as if they need retraining. I would think until you have some of this information then all you are going to get is similar to the other thread.

 

You know what I do know exactly where you are coming from, after 90 mins on phone to council, with the gentleman that finally resolved this for me last week, we agreed it was a mess, everyone failed each other, they failed to provide the service they should have, I failed in that I just had enough and said no more and that was it, was more principle for me than anything. We both agreed at time I should of paid in order to clear what I believed was a good estimate to what it should of been and then left it with them the incorrect remainder, that didn't make sense as to me going off what happened already, even if I had cleared account and left their incorrect mistake as a balance, it would of more than likely appeared at court bailiffs, I would of still been away and they still wouldn't have actioned the amendment needed. But that just speculation, cant alter the past to predict the future.

 

Thing is with me due to the way I work, I make it my priority to ensure that who ever I work for gets exactly what they asked for, exactly when they asked for it and not a single thing different in anyway, that way everyone is happy, no issues, jobs a good one and paid. Never a bad word said and one very happy client and always guaranteed to return back. When someone messes up with such the simplest task of a sodding date and after months of telling them, sending them paperwork, writing very simple emails and letters and time passes and not a single thing even done, half the time don't even acknowledge, just general we got your email someone will be in touch shortly..... yet in mean time they demand I still pay something that I don't actually owe, i start to get fed up and I'm pretty sure i am not the only one. But when it gets to end of year and still I am getting letters regards outstanding balance that was it. I refused to pay until it was actioned, the notes on my account on their system clearly show it and the reasons why But low and behold no matter what I have done, what they haven't done they then proceed to claim all of it with an order in court. Possibly had I not been away and at home the week earlier may have had enough time and clearly again pointed out the error or had chance to laugh it in their face at court in person but either way it went past that stage but still that never worked even then telling them. So many staff names had surpassed me in this time that the staff turnover was either fairly high or they don't have enough staff and other departments covered. It may of been around time of the switchover to their own managed systems though cant be certain. I don't know but it seems as though it was never picked up and actioned to end. Would of taken 5 minutes and that included pressing print and walking to printer.

 

At then end of the day I was stubborn and stood by my own principle, they acted like they didn't care and I just had enough. When someone tells you time and time again you are making the same mistakes, there becomes a time when you lose your rag. Kids do it to me all the time. Same excuse as my kids is used, it not my fault. They did though blame it on the lady I spoke to way back when I first noted mistake and tried to properly sort in December but she has long since left but it stated on notes she requested actual tenancy agreement not would accept my scanned copy I had taken and emailed over in first instance. Though that argument surpassed rapidly when further along the timeline it states a letter from landlord confirming dates in question was noted on my account.

 

Obviously this years bill not a real concern, I only missed 2 months and have stated would clear it once they sorted it, I just told them I never refused to pay the payments were just on hold at moment pending a noted discrepancy.

 

They have admitted in writing today that a clerical error and oversight had occurred and apologised and offered to have bailiffs refund back the difference from what they had dent originally at and what I actually owe, at least its something. Now I just take it as high as I can to get back what I paid on top highlighting the huge mistakes and discrepancies noted during the whole fiasco.

 

Only thing that bugs me throughout is how they can still hold me liable on a order knowing it was wrong and confirming it was wrong, stating it can just be amended but would still be valid.

 

I went through a right fiasco with a CCJ I applied as the figures went through wrong, payments made to my account just before hearing to have judge not rule in my favour as what I was claiming was incorrect and an oversight on my behalf, then they did one and I lost out never did get what i was actually owed and ended up having to right of the debt.

 

Subject access will definitely be used but will have to wait as cant spare the costs until i get paid next. Of all the months this one was my least busiest as we had a lot of personal things to sort and little one just started school for first time beginning of month so knew it wasn't going to be easy and I was due to restart my final courses to finish off my degree this week.

 

But apologies now for possible lack of grammar, spelling etc, not slept for 2 days now and not sure when I next will, and now dealing with an adult and 2 sick kids not sure when that will next happen.

 

Though somehow looking through the last 10 months, not even sure how this was even possible to get to this stage. A lot of questions to raise, whether it was an isolated incidence or whether there was incompetence, i wont know but deep down i was Data Analyst for some many years and it may be nice for an FOI request to see how isolated this may of been, at least when i hopefully see a resolution of some sorts, I can help ensure this doesn't happen again. Though when you delve and see the company running their Administration is the same company chasing monies hastily not owe you sort of answer these questions yourself.

 

Of all the years i have to admit never once ever had an issue like this with any Local Authority, and have moved few times due to past work contracts, council tax is pretty simple in its own rights. My 4 year old can type on a computer and pretty sure if i gave him a name, address and a date to type in, i could be fairly confident he could type it exactly like it says on the paper. That said, my entire Local Authorities Tax System may be ran along the similar lines to Subway and each member of staff is responsible for a particular field/line to type in on the screen, just so happened to be on the day they did mine, the date member of staff was off sick and someone who just does the postcode field also had to do the date one aswell but that was too much to ask of them as that wasn't in their job description and they were never properly trained on dates.

[brassnecked]

Just an observation, but as the council could have a severe Capita infestation, as in revenue office and other administrative functions outsourced to Capita, who own Equita, you will find that obtaining a Liability Order and sending the Equita attack dogs to garner more fees for their subsidiary seems to be the default position. One other factor is that if Crapita infest the council the people you have been dealing with are highly likely to be Capita employees not actual council officials, so they may say one thing and do another. Do those Formal Complaints and see what develops.

[outlawla]

Hope this is relevant (haven't seen the original thread)

 

Technically the Council have the law on its side but you might find some points to argue on the reasonableness of taking Court action whilst a dispute or claim is ongoing. Although circumstances may be different, there should be some relevant information in the post linked to below:

 

LGO decisions