@lidluk Hi, quick question re Lidl/Athena

[q.q.qlp]

Hi,

 

I'm a regular Lidl customer and can prove it from receipts.

 

On 25/07/14 I parked in Lidl as my wife had a hospital appt (a 20week pregnancy scan) and the hospital parking/on street parking nearby is a nightmare. I intended to return within the 90mins allowed to shop in Lidl (I did shop in Lidl afterwards but it was after I left the car-park (exited car-park 13:31, time on receipt 15:07)).

 

We ran a bit late (as the baby was not in correct position!) and I didn't want to miss the scan by running back to Lidl so we were 17mins 52 seconds over the allowed 90mins.

 

I now have a Civil Parking Charge Notice from Athena for £90 reduced to £45 if I pay within 14 days.

 

This seems a bit excessive to say the least. I don't have any real defence as I broke their rules, do I have any way of not paying this charge? Is it legally enforceable? Can I offer to pay a smaller, more reasonable charge for 18minutes?

 

Many thanks for any help!

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

The chances are that you won't need to pay, but I'll leave it to the guys to explain. They should be along over the course of the day. They know their stuff, don't worry about Athena.

 

You might take a little while to have a look at similar threads to your own, we have quite a few about Athena and/or Lidl car parks.

 

My best, HB

[renegadeimp]

GPEOL. Wins every time. others will explain in more detail.

[ericsbrother]

well, there are 2 stages to your appeal, you have to appeal to Athena ANPR first and then to POPLA if that is unsuccessful.

There is something you must understand before appealing though, everything you have said above is irrelevant to your appeal and will get you nowhere in an argument about contractual obligations. Quite the reverse, it damages your chances of getting anywhere. Write to Athena and simply say that you were shopping there and send a photocopy your receipt saying that as a geniune customer you expect the demand to be cancelled or a POPLA code issued. Do not say any more than this. After the bad publicity in this week's Daily Mailo it might be enough to get the demand cancelled.

if your appeal is rejected then come back to this post and tell us what the reasons for rejection are and you will get advice on how to win your appeal at POPLA.

[Billy's mate]

Does the car park have ANPR cameras, and is this how you were caught ?. This is interesting because Lidl ( or was it Aldi ? ) were selling ANPR number plate blockers in their stores for £7.99 at one time !. Follow ericsbrothers advice then come back to us for your next step.

[armadillo71]

Hi,

 

I'm a regular Lidl customer and can prove it from receipts.

 

On 25/07/14 I parked in Lidl as my wife had a hospital appt (a 20week pregnancy scan) and the hospital parking/on street parking nearby is a nightmare. I intended to return within the 90mins allowed to shop in Lidl (I did shop in Lidl afterwards but it was after I left the car-park (exited car-park 13:31, time on receipt 15:07)).

 

We ran a bit late (as the baby was not in correct position!) and I didn't want to miss the scan by running back to Lidl so we were 17mins 52 seconds over the allowed 90mins.

 

I now have a Civil Parking Charge Notice from Athena for £90 reduced to £45 if I pay within 14 days.

 

This seems a bit excessive to say the least. I don't have any real defence as I broke their rules, do I have any way of not paying this charge? Is it legally enforceable? Can I offer to pay a smaller, more reasonable charge for 18minutes?

 

Many thanks for any help!

 

 

Did you get the invoice within fourteen days of parking?

[q.q.qlp]

The invoice for the charge? Yes it arrived 6 days later unfortunately

 

The receipt for Lidl I have but it is for 1.5hrs after I left Lidl (we went for lunch first and then parked elsewhere whilst I shopped as it is no return within 2 hrs) and that days receipt is only for £8. So ironically I has to pay for on street parking to do my shop there anyway! I have two previous Lidl receipts for within 1 month for about £70-80 to prove that I'm a good regular cstomer though.

[renegadeimp]

Doesnt matter. Follow ericbrothers advice and dont be scared or intimidated. You're in good hands.

[ericsbrother]

Do not write anything thatsidetracks from the matter at hand, the bit about going to lunch/hospital is irrelevant and potentially damaging to your appeal. Stick to the point abouit shopping in there that day and photocopy of receipt. Dont point out any time discrepancy, let them be confused.

[i hate bailiffs]

One last thing get in contact with lidl cause them a headache you are their customer

Do they want to loose you

Other shops out there

 

Do above but get on to Lidil if everyone done so they will have to look at their car park miss management! The customer is always right!

 

See if you can get vouchers off them!

[armadillo71]

The invoice for the charge? Yes it arrived 6 days later unfortunately

 

The receipt for Lidl I have but it is for 1.5hrs after I left Lidl (we went for lunch first and then parked elsewhere whilst I shopped as it is no return within 2 hrs) and that days receipt is only for £8. So ironically I has to pay for on street parking to do my shop there anyway! I have two previous Lidl receipts for within 1 month for about £70-80 to prove that I'm a good regular cstomer though.

 

As ericsbrother has said, you appeal to Athena first.

 

You state that as registered keeper of vehicle reg xxxxxxx , you are not liable for this charge.

No loss has occurred to the land owner by the driver spending money in the store.

No copy of the receipt will be provided and I am under no obligation to name the driver of the vehicle.

Please cancel this charge forthwith, or issue a valid code for the independent appeals service POPLA.

No other correspondence will be entered into.

This appeal has been sent with proof of postage.

[q.q.qlp]

Hi guys, thanks so much for prompt help and advice, really appreciate it!

 

Just to be clear, should I send my £8 receipt from Lidl same day (wrong time) to athena at this stage or not?

 

Should I contact Lidl also at first (with my three recent receipts one from same day but wrong time for £8 and two more £70 ish from june?) or not contact Lidl at this stage?

 

Sorry, I just want to get it right and as you say don't want to weaken my case.

 

Thanks again!

[DragonFly1967]

To be honest, I wouldn't give the PPC any information at this stage bar an appeal and telling them that should the appeal fail (which it probably will, PPC's reject most, all they want is your money) you'll be wanting a POPLA code.

 

Let the PPC worry about what you're going to say to POPLA, the less info they have, the less they'll be able to dream up possible defences to it

 

 

I'd also not bother with Lidl, they're just likely to refer you to the PPC anyway.

 

Worded correctly, and with the right information (which you will get help with on here), you're more than likely to win at POPLA and even if you lose at POPLA (unlikely) their decision is only binding on the PPC. The PPC would still have to take you to county court, and win there too, to get their money.

[ericsbrother]

Yes, send a letter saying that you were there shopping and a copy of your receipt for that day is enclosed so they can use the "genuine shopper" clause in the contract they signed with Lidl to justify the cancellation of 20% of all demands issued. If they do not agree to this then you want a POPLA code and will be taking the matter up with both Lidl head office and the Daily Mail (who are running a campaign all week againt parking banditry). Dont bother with the other receipts, they are worthless. Do not send the original eithwer, you will need it later.

 

If they reject your appeal then you use a different argument at POPLA and use the time discrepancy to call into question their number plate recogniton system calibation. We know it is correct but they will have to spend time and money proving it should they wish to defend on that point.

[DragonFly1967]

ericsbrother....

 

we ASSUME it's correct we don't know for certain that it is

[ericsbrother]

the reality is that it will be impossibel for PE and the like to show that it is correctly calibrated, a computer expert picked holes in their systems a while back and it is a shame it wasnt stickied on the forum as it could then be used in every ANPR appeal. However, the equipment is made to a standard recognised as being accurate by the Home Office so always difficult to prove you know better without a different and better system to compare it to.

[q.q.qlp]

OK done! (Gulp!) I used armadillo75' s template- thanks! I did send the receipt in the end. Will post the reply when I receive it...

[q.q.qlp]

Hello again!

 

I received a reply from Athena which states that as per schedule 4 POFA 2014 I am responsible as registered keeper of the vehicle if they can't find the driver. Is this a new thing? Am I stuffed? I tried to post the letter up but as Im less than 10 posts it won't let me.

 

What is my next step? A letter like this one I found online maybe? If they drop it before it goes to POPLA that would be a lot less hassle:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle registration number xxxxx and confirm receipt of your parking charge notice xxxxxxx dated xxxxxx and deny any liability to pay this parking charge.

 

As you appear to be circumventing the requirements of POFA 2012, the registered keeper is not responsible for this charge, but the driver! I therefore suggest you take this matter up with that person. Please note I have no legal obligation to name the driver.

 

The amount claimed constitutes an unlawful penalty,as it is not a genuine pre-estimate of any loss you pretend you have and I further contend that you have no legal authority to pursue any charge.

 

As you are pursuing the wrong person, you are being put on notice that complaints are being prepared to submit to the BPA and DVLA and I suggest that you cancel this parking charge immediately.

 

Notwithstanding the above, should you refuse to cancel this parking charge due to your failure to invoke keeper liability, then this letter must be accepted also as a formal appeal. In this case a POPLA code must be supplied as per the British Parking Association's Code of Practice: which as Civil Enforcement is an AOS member and as part of your KADOE contract with the DVLA must abide by this Code in order to gain keeper details.

 

Further points will be raised at POPLA for consideration. However note that should you either continue to pursue myself as keeper (with or without supplying a POPLA code), then I reserve the right to raise a claim for my costs and time against you at a court rate of £18 per hour. My costs are not exhaustive and will include stationery, stamps, travel expenses and any legal costs etc, and by continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these should I prevail.

 

In view of the above, I look forward to receiving your written confirmation by return that this parking charge has been cancelled.

 

Yours faithfully

 

name

Registered Keeper

[q.q.qlp]

Here is a direct link to the letter, hope it works, I've never done this before!

 

I've deleted the initial h--p bit in the hope that it will let me post:

 

://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b614/qqqlp/AthenaParkingLetter1_zps59a2a1c8.jpg

[ericsbrother]

Have they given you the 10 digit POPLA code? If not then a complaint to the BPA is the next step saying that Athena have failed to follow procedures andwhat are they going to do about their members flouting the law?

copy letter to Athena the Daily Mail and your MP ( wont make any real difference but keeps the private parking story on the boil)

[q.q.qlp]

Yes they have. I like the idea to forward to MP and Daily MAil. Think I may just do that...

[armadillo71]

Yes they have....

 

You have the POPLA validation code?

 

If so, have a read of this thread;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?422953-Athena-ANPR-ticket-advice-needed-please.-WON-AT-POPLA-)

[q.q.qlp]

Great!. So this letter (from Boofie in the other thread linked- by armadillo71 many thanks to you both!) is better than the other one I found? Does the change I pointed out in my letter about them being able to chase the reg keeper if they cant find the driver ("as per Schedule 4 of the rotection Of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA)")change anything? If not I'm going to send whichever letter you guys recommend most with any necessary changes and will keep you posted on whether I win or lose.

 

 

Dear POPLA,

 

I am the registered keeper of vehicle registration xxxxxxxxx and I contend that I am not liable for the alleged parking charge - .. I wish to appeal against the notice on the following grounds:

 

1. The driver has not been identified, so the appeal rejection letter is addressed incorrectly.

 

2. Athena ANPR have failed to clarify whether the charge is for damages arising from breach of contract or a contractual charge.

 

3. If this is a claim for damages, I require Athena ANPR to provide a full breakdown of genuine pre-estimates of loss to the landowner that this charge represents. Obviously, business running costs do not apply. I contend that the landowner and Athena ANPR have suffered no loss on an alleged overstay in a free car park.

 

4. If this is issued as a contractual charge, I require Athena ANPR to provide proof that the charge is fair, reasonable and not punitive. I submit that Athena ANPR has not provided a mechanism on site if the driver wishes to stay for longer than 90 minutes, and it is an unfair attempt to make a party pay excessively for an event which would normally be 'breach of contract.' I contend that the £90 charge is punitive, and an unenforceable penalty.

 

5. Finally, I require Athena ANPR to produce to POPLA the contemporaneous and unredacted contract between the landowner and Athena ANPR that authorises them to issue parking charge notices. I contend that there is no contract with the landowner that entitles Athena ANPR to levy these charges and to pursue these charges in their own name in the Courts, and Athena ANPR therefore has no authority to issue charge notices.

 

I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge dismissed.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

The Registered Keeper

[q.q.qlp]

P.S. I see that the link I tried to see my letter has not worked, sorry about that. I can't find a way to show you the letter.

[armadillo71]

The reason why we all have to appeal these invoices is precisely because of the POFA 2012 schedule 4.

 

Ultimately if nothing is done, the keeper could end up in court.

 

Have you read and understood the letter you posted?

It mentions CEL, a different PPC...

 

Use the Boofie appeal, but make sure it applies to your situation and you understand it.