Discussion: Why do so many benefit claimants seem obsessed with Data Protection issues

[Madamfluff]

Conversely, I have always been concerned as to why the great unwashed of society, who cannot secure employment within the Wealth Creating Sector, Third Sector, Public Sector, and who end up at the bottom of the economic food chain working within the Welfare To Work Sector develop ideas above their station. However, given that Job Centre Plus provide comprehensive personal data on the candidate when they sentence the candidate to the Work Programme, it remains an anomalous irregularity as to why Welfare To Work Clerks obsess over candidates signing spurious and superfluous Data Protection Forms.

 

It cannot be helpful, or healthy, for a Welfare To Work Clerk to obsess in this way.

 

 

 

But apparently not your DOB. When I knew I was going to be on the work programme

I looked at what info they were given . NI no name and address singing on period but not DOB.

 

 

When they phoned me to tell me I was going on it I was asked to 'confirm' my DOB I just said 'I understand the DWP don't give you my DOB so I am not going to'

 

 

During the induction meeting I was asked again and again I told them you don't need it

just my age and was told the 'I see DWP hasn't given it to us 'yet'' .

 

 

I think they were waiting until I had my 121 session when I would have been told that they had to have it.

 

 

When I phoned them about cancelling the apt as I had signed off , again I was asked to confirm my DOB and again I said I haven't given it to you so cant confirm it.

[Mr.P]

[...]was asked why I signed off I told them it was none of their business and was told I was required by LAW to tell them (lying B******) since then they have phoned me 3 times demanding to know if I have got a job.

 

You are quite correct, there is no legislation that requires you to give any reason as to why you closed your claim. The next course of action would be to write them a short and robustly worded letter instructing them that any further communication (phone calls, emails, personal visits, etc) will be treated as harassment under sections 2 & 3 of the Protection Form Harassment Act.

 

I have other ways of dealing with unsolicited telephone calls, but only because I'm labelled as a grumpy old b*****d

[Werewolf]

Some great insights here. Thanks for all responses.

 

I guess having seen it from both sides of the coin - having worked on one side of the JCP desk and now signing on the other and having been through the WP too. I find myself filled with the dictionary definition of cognitive dissonance.

 

Life is hard. Whoever said it was easy? And I've been guilty as a single white man with no kids to just sit on my arse and enjoy my hobbies hoping they might turn into careers. But they haven't so far. So while I hate IDS for this new nasty regime, I also think maybe it's fair enough - why SHOULD people like me just kick back and avoid having to do terrible jobs that everyone else has to do for less money than my current HB and JSA, CTX allowance, etc?

 

I guess my main issue is with 'Anxiety and Depression'. Having suffered with Anxiety in the past, the worst thing was to indulge me and let the system allow me to never get out of myself and make an effort. When I did finally have to make an effort and couldn't afford financially to just get signed off sick all the time, then I finally realised I didn't actually suffer from 'Anxiety' but was 'suffering' from doing nothing and being excluded from society.

 

Depression is more complex - there are those people who find life hard, for whom life hasn't gone the way they wanted, and feel 'sad, lost, angry, miserable'. I was one. Bu also there are people who have a chemical imbalance in their brain who are clinically depressed and even with winning the lottery they'd still feel the same and couldn't get out of bed.

 

I think the Labour govt. made a massive mistake in their desire to reduce unemployment figures by parking people who felt a bit sad and 'key word' depressed and anxious about their **** life onto disability allowance and leaving them there forever.

 

Like I say, cognitive dissonance all over the place, but it's amazing reading this forum how 80% of posts about Benefits are about 'Anxiety & Depression' ESA - NOT Mental Health issues or Physical Health disabilities. So, as much as it pains me to say it, maybe IDS is actually on the right track - to stop giving money to those who should just 'man-up'. And start focusing real money on those who need it because they can't help themselves?

Edited May 9, 2014 by Werewolf

[Nystagmite]

Oh for Christ sake. what exactly is your problem with depression and anxiety claiming ESA? You don't just get signed off for having anxiety and /or depression. You have to be quite ill. I've had depression a few times in my life and it got to the stage where the police were involved and my friend had contacted my parents (I lived away at the time) and informed them what was going on. He then said he was going to talk to them again because "we have to decide what we do with you" - because it was clear to him that I was ill.

 

That's the reality for many people with depression and anxiety. Many people with depression and anxiety ahve other crippling health issues. I used to know someone with severe physical disabilities. It said on her care plan from social services to not constantly send out benefit forms because it makes her mental health worse. For many, having poor mental health makes physical health worse. (for me, it's the over way around - the severe head pain I experience can and does cause depression)

 

Depression is a mental health issue. Some of those diagnosed with depression are usually being investgiated for other severe mental health problems.

[estellyn]

Some great insights here. Thanks for all responses.

 

I guess having seen it from both sides of the coin - having worked on one side of the JCP desk and now signing on the other and having been through the WP too. I find myself filled with the dictionary definition of cognitive dissonance.

 

Life is hard. Whoever said it was easy? And I've been guilty as a single white man with no kids to just sit on my arse and enjoy my hobbies hoping they might turn into careers. But they haven't so far. So while I hate IDS for this new nasty regime, I also think maybe it's fair enough - why SHOULD people like me just kick back and avoid having to do terrible jobs that everyone else has to do for less money than my current HB and JSA, CTX allowance, etc?

 

I guess my main issue is with 'Anxiety and Depression'. Having suffered with Anxiety in the past, the worst thing was to indulge me and let the system allow me to never get out of myself and make an effort. When I did finally have to make an effort and couldn't afford financially to just get signed off sick all the time, then I finally realised I didn't actually suffer from 'Anxiety' but was 'suffering' from doing nothing and being excluded from society.

 

Depression is more complex - there are those people who find life hard, for whom life hasn't gone the way they wanted, and feel 'sad, lost, angry, miserable'. I was one. Bu also there are people who have a chemical imbalance in their brain who are clinically depressed and even with winning the lottery they'd still feel the same and couldn't get out of bed.

 

I think the Labour govt. made a massive mistake in their desire to reduce unemployment figures by parking people who felt a bit sad and 'key word' depressed and anxious about their **** life onto disability allowance and leaving them there forever.

 

Like I say, cognitive dissonance all over the place, but it's amazing reading this forum how 80% of posts about Benefits are about 'Anxiety & Depression' ESA - NOT Mental Health issues or Physical Health disabilities.

 

 

The reality is that if a 'kick up the backside' stops you being 'anxious' or 'depressed', then you weren't really truly suffering from those things in the first place. I agree that there are people that mistake feeling a little down or a little worried with true debilitating anxiety or depression. Then there are milder cases who could be helped with a course of CBT - when ESA was brought in there was supposed to be funding for specialist treatment to help get people who were milder cases (mental and physical health problems) back to work quicker, but all we have is the work programme who as far as I know offer nothing that will help.

 

 

True debilitating depression or anxiety is very difficult to treat and people who suffer with it have very little life at all. Think about it this way - we all have a glass which gets filled as the day goes on, and if the cup overflows then we become unable to deal with the world around us. A healthy person's glass will not get above half full on a regular day. High amounts of stress fill the glass up more. Someone who suffers anxiety or depression starts the day with glass already partly filled - less or more depending on the severity of the condition. Daily life events also fill the glass more quickly than for a healthy person.

 

 

Someone who has severe anxiety might be able to get out of bed and potter about the house, but make them go to work or even have to deal with work programme and this may have the their glass overflowing and be unable to cope by mid morning.

 

 

Yes there are people with milder mental health problems who could maybe have some help to start to recover. And it is unacceptable that help is really not available for those unable to help themselves.

 

 

But another thing to consider with iDS's reforms is that there is a limited amount of jobs available. Filling all the jobs still leaves millions without any way to earn money. IDS knowing this and still forcing people to jump through ever increasing and difficult hoops is simply punitive and punishment. In saying people should have to work for their money, even if it is mandatory work and withdrawing benefits from people, is saying that those who don't or can't work should be left to die. There are people in every society who have undiagnosed learning difficulties or personality issues who really will never be able to hold down a job but will never qualify for ESA WRAG criteria. There are even those with chronic health conditions who do not qualify for ESA but realistically will not ever be able to get a job - there will always be someone who won't have lots of sick days or need adjustments in the workplace who will get the job instead - a lot of these people have no special skills, training or education that would make them valuable to an employer.

 

 

It's all very well having a rhetoric of 'we don't want to leave anyone on benefits' or 'we're helping people to get off benefits', but when the reality is that firstly there is a core who realistically will never work, and then a large number who will be long term unemployed because there aren't enough jobs for everyone, and many of these people do not have the ability to start their own business. So to have all of these hoops and punishments becomes less 'help' and more like torture. Add to that a 'skivers versus strivers' propaganda message and it all comes together as some sort of disgusting crusade against the poor and disadvantaged.

 

 

As to lots of mental health issues on the board - well yes, you would get this because the ESA WCA is still easier to pass for those with physical disabilities than mental health issues, so more people with mental health problems fail the WCA but then go on to win at appeal. A physical condition is far easier to assess in the time allowed for a WCA than a mental health condition, therefore more people with mental health issues come to the board for help.

 

 

I'm also a former DWP employee on the other side now (ESA support group), and I don't really experience any cognitive dissonance, but maybe that's because following working for the DWP I worked for a charity that advised and assisted benefit claimants.

[antone]

I think the Labour govt. made a massive mistake in their desire to reduce unemployment figures by parking people who felt a bit sad and 'key word' depressed and anxious about their **** life onto disability allowance and leaving them there forever.

 

 

Others have covered the issues of mental health more than adequately, but I did want to pick up on this factual inaccuracy. It is not the last Labour government which is responsible for the situation you describe. In fact, they introduced ESA with the stated aim of reducing the number of people on long-term sickness benefits. No, the rot started during the Thatcher administration, when pretty much anyone who sneezed in a Jobcentre was told to claim IB. And yes, this unofficial policy was indeed an attempt to reduce disastrous unemployment figures.

[Werewolf]

Oh for Christ sake. what exactly is your problem with depression and anxiety claiming ESA? You don't just get signed off for having anxiety and /or depression. You have to be quite ill. I've had depression a few times in my life and it got to the stage where the police were involved and my friend had contacted my parents (I lived away at the time) and informed them what was going on. He then said he was going to talk to them again because "we have to decide what we do with you" - because it was clear to him that I was ill.

 

That's the reality for many people with depression and anxiety. Many people with depression and anxiety ahve other crippling health issues. I used to know someone with severe physical disabilities. It said on her care plan from social services to not constantly send out benefit forms because it makes her mental health worse. For many, having poor mental health makes physical health worse. (for me, it's the over way around - the severe head pain I experience can and does cause depression)

 

Depression is a mental health issue. Some of those diagnosed with depression are usually being investgiated for other severe mental health problems.

 

It's clear you actually didn't read what I posted.

 

Read again = learn more.

 

Those who have mental health issues like clinical depression or psychiatric disorders should be supported by the tax payer and given all the support they need, or even just enough money so they never have to dance through the evil WRAG hoops. BUT, those who get a sick note from the doctor because they feel a bit anxious and depressed - I'm not sure it's really in the same category and to pretend it is is to insult thoughs who have genuine mental health issues/

[Nystagmite]

My point still stands - you wouldn't get a sick note for feeling a bit depressed.

[Werewolf]

My point still stands - you wouldn't get a sick note for feeling a bit depressed.

 

My point stands - you'd be amazed how often you do.

[antone]

My point stands - you'd be amazed how often you do.

 

That's not really a "point", as such. It's more of an assertion.

[Werewolf]

The reality is that if a 'kick up the backside' stops you being 'anxious' or 'depressed', then you weren't really truly suffering from those things in the first place. I agree that there are people that mistake feeling a little down or a little worried with true debilitating anxiety or depression. Then there are milder cases who could be helped with a course of CBT - when ESA was brought in there was supposed to be funding for specialist treatment to help get people who were milder cases (mental and physical health problems) back to work quicker, but all we have is the work programme who as far as I know offer nothing that will help.

 

 

True debilitating depression or anxiety is very difficult to treat and people who suffer with it have very little life at all. Think about it this way - we all have a glass which gets filled as the day goes on, and if the cup overflows then we become unable to deal with the world around us. A healthy person's glass will not get above half full on a regular day. High amounts of stress fill the glass up more. Someone who suffers anxiety or depression starts the day with glass already partly filled - less or more depending on the severity of the condition. Daily life events also fill the glass more quickly than for a healthy person.

 

 

Someone who has severe anxiety might be able to get out of bed and potter about the house, but make them go to work or even have to deal with work programme and this may have the their glass overflowing and be unable to cope by mid morning.

 

 

Yes there are people with milder mental health problems who could maybe have some help to start to recover. And it is unacceptable that help is really not available for those unable to help themselves.

 

 

But another thing to consider with iDS's reforms is that there is a limited amount of jobs available. Filling all the jobs still leaves millions without any way to earn money. IDS knowing this and still forcing people to jump through ever increasing and difficult hoops is simply punitive and punishment. In saying people should have to work for their money, even if it is mandatory work and withdrawing benefits from people, is saying that those who don't or can't work should be left to die. There are people in every society who have undiagnosed learning difficulties or personality issues who really will never be able to hold down a job but will never qualify for ESA WRAG criteria. There are even those with chronic health conditions who do not qualify for ESA but realistically will not ever be able to get a job - there will always be someone who won't have lots of sick days or need adjustments in the workplace who will get the job instead - a lot of these people have no special skills, training or education that would make them valuable to an employer.

 

 

It's all very well having a rhetoric of 'we don't want to leave anyone on benefits' or 'we're helping people to get off benefits', but when the reality is that firstly there is a core who realistically will never work, and then a large number who will be long term unemployed because there aren't enough jobs for everyone, and many of these people do not have the ability to start their own business. So to have all of these hoops and punishments becomes less 'help' and more like torture. Add to that a 'skivers versus strivers' propaganda message and it all comes together as some sort of disgusting crusade against the poor and disadvantaged.

 

 

As to lots of mental health issues on the board - well yes, you would get this because the ESA WCA is still easier to pass for those with physical disabilities than mental health issues, so more people with mental health problems fail the WCA but then go on to win at appeal. A physical condition is far easier to assess in the time allowed for a WCA than a mental health condition, therefore more people with mental health issues come to the board for help.

 

 

I'm also a former DWP employee on the other side now (ESA support group), and I don't really experience any cognitive dissonance, but maybe that's because following working for the DWP I worked for a charity that advised and assisted benefit claimants.

 

Thank you Estellyn, that's really made me think, and I've learned something here with your post.

 

Best wishes,

 

Werewolf