Trader listing cars as "spares or repair"

[JuryMan77]

After reading the (long) apparent terms and conditions, I'm not convinced this seller isn't trying to avoid his obligations under SOGA.

 

Can I hear someone else's opinion?

 

http://tinyurl.com/ly4bjz2

[labrat]

VERY VERY SNEAKY

 

try highlighting the text in the blank spot between the T&C's and the pictures, hidden text using white font on white background

 

not sure about the legalities but the term barge pole and wont touch come to mind

 

edit: ignore this its now got a backgroud image on it so shows the text

[BazzaS]

How are they allowing test drives unless the car is roadworthy?

 

One for Berkshire Trading Standards?

[heliosuk]

How are they allowing test drives unless the car is roadworthy?QUOTE]

 

They don't declare the car is un roadworthy just that it is sold as spares or repairs because it has a suspected fault. Seems honest to me. It's the ones who don't declare faults and sell as good that are dodgy.

[oddjobbob]

+1 to Helios above, looked thru his feedback, seems to do exactly what he says on the tin to me.

 

 

Pile em high sell em cheap, told at the very start spares or repairs, no comebacks, decent business model I reckon, same as buying at BCA except you can drive and test it and walk away if you don't want it.

 

 

Very novel and good idea if you ask me, but certainly not for the faint hearted or nervous buyer.... but they do tell you that!

[JuryMan77]

Thanks fellas - appreciated

[scaniaman]

The seller may appear to be doing the right thing here but what prices is he asking?? Do they reflect "Spares or Repair"?

[oddjobbob]

He's not 'asking' in that sense, the cars are sold by no reserve auction on ebay quite clearly stating that you must read the description fully and understand that car is sols as 'not fit for any particular purpose under the RTA, etc'. They declare known faults but quite openly say that you may well have to spend further money on the car.

 

 

Its also stated that after winning the auction you are welcome to view, inspect, and test drive the car for as long as you want to, and if you don't want to buy it then you can do so with no hard feelings. Looking thru the feedback a few customers do decide to do this, but the remarks do state that they are pleasant to deal with.

 

 

It also states that once you have bought it they won't entertain any comebacks whatsoever.

 

 

It's just like going to a car auction really, except that you can inspect properly and test drive and walk away.

 

 

Looking at the sale prices these cars go for trade money and I would think they have VERY short profits on most of them... but sell 40 cars a week at £150 profit, that's £6000 a week.

 

 

I think it's a good business model albeit with very tight margins, and good luck to them.

 

 

Although if you don't know anything about cars and want the full retail treatment then by all means pay £1000 more at a dealership, customer's choice really.

[sailor sam]

Not sure that the seller can allow a test drive unless the car has insurance relating to it and it is taxed (unless it's on trade plates and the trader is present in the car).

 

Also. providing the seller is a trader, online auctions are subject to similar conditions under the SOGA as buying normally. However, normal auctions (where as the auction house isn't the actual vendor of the vehicle) don't.

 

Unless the rules have totally changed from when the last time I checked, it is still illegal to remove (or attempt to remove) a consumer's statutory rights, meaning the terms such as "no refunds, sold as seen or no comebacks" would be considered as doing just that, in my opinion.

 

Selling a car to a member of the public for "spares or repair only" would suggest to me that the car is being sold as "non drive-able" meaning that it would not be legal to drive it away at the point of sale. In those circumstances, I can't see how it would be legal to advertise that the car can be test driven as that surely implies the car is being sold as "fit for the purpose" if it can be driven.

 

Having said all that, I too agree on one hand that the trader here is being completely open and frank about what he is selling which is obviously better than hiding the fact the cars have defects, BUT that dosn't necessarily mean that he is fully complying with consumer law when selling in this way to the general public.

[scaniaman]

Sam, under these circumstances, the trader could only be done under soga if the car was beyond repair or a large %age of the components were unusable---IMHO.

The only other thing he may be doing wrong is not clearly advertising and enforcing that the purchaser MUST have the car transported away from his premises.

[king12345]

IMO he hasn't done anything wrong.

He is very clear that the car is for parts and also gives the opportunity to have it checked by a mechanic for an entire day.

If not happy you can still walk away.

Sounds fair to me.

Potential bargain to be acquired.

P.S. I'm not connected to the seller and I'm not a car trader, I just think that he could sell these scraps as good cars and disappear as many do, but he wants no come back.

[oddjobbob]

I would bear all the below in mind:

 

 

 

He has 6000+ feedback with very few negatives

 

 

However, out of those negatives and presuming some cars are sold outside of ebay, albeit on the same terms, someone, somewhere will have bought a car from him with either known or unknown faults, tried to get a refund or repair and been turned down. This is inevitable given the numbers involved.

 

 

Out of those, someone, somewhere will have gone to CAB or TS to complain, I would be staggered if this has not happened.

 

 

In which case TS or CAB will have looked at this operation and decided it is perfectly OK.

 

 

You just can't sell that volume of cars and not be known to them.

 

 

As far as driving away / test drives go, as long as the car has a current MOT and he has demonstration cover on his insurance, then it is not necessarily or even likely to be unroadworthy, merely sold on the basis that it is for spares or repair.

 

 

To be fair to the man, allowing you a whole day of testing to decide if you want to buy or not appears supremely fair to me.

[sailor sam]

I would bear all the below in mind:

 

 

 

He has 6000+ feedback with very few negatives

 

 

However, out of those negatives and presuming some cars are sold outside of ebay, albeit on the same terms, someone, somewhere will have bought a car from him with either known or unknown faults, tried to get a refund or repair and been turned down. This is inevitable given the numbers involved.

 

 

Out of those, someone, somewhere will have gone to CAB or TS to complain, I would be staggered if this has not happened.

 

 

In which case TS or CAB will have looked at this operation and decided it is perfectly OK.

 

 

You just can't sell that volume of cars and not be known to them.

 

 

As far as driving away / test drives go, as long as the car has a current MOT and he has demonstration cover on his insurance, then it is not necessarily or even likely to be unroadworthy, merely sold on the basis that it is for spares or repair.

 

 

To be fair to the man, allowing you a whole day of testing to decide if you want to buy or not appears supremely fair to me.

 

This surely is the potential flaw in his policy. I don't think you can legally sell a car as "spares or repair" to a member of the public when it can be driven away AND satisfy the SOGA. Surely by allowing test drives, it contradicts the fact that the vehicle is being sold as "spares or repair". For a vehicle to be driven on a public road, it has to be in a road worthy condition, covered by insurance and taxed. I would be interested to hear what TS's opinion would be on this.

[rds60h]

By selling as Spares or Repairs the seller has informed the potential buyer that there is no guarantee of the vehicle working, therefore should you find a fault shortly after you have bought the vehicle then you have no comeback.

However, by selling in this manner the seller also acknowledges that because the vehicle is sold as "Spares or Repairs" he is not going to be offered market value for the vehicle.

So in actual fact both the seller and the buyer take a risk, the seller by not getting a reasonable price and the buyer by not having any guarantee.

The Seller is very open about his business model and actually is more than fair to the buyer by allowing them to test drive the vehicle after having agreed the auction selling price but before acceptance and payment for the vehicle.

By selling as "Spares or Repairs" he satisfies SoGA and as he has nowhere stated that the vehicle is unroadworthy it meets the RTA criteria in the same way as any other car for sale, in fact this seller actually offers to MOT and Road Tax vehicles if requested and you are prepared to pay for the privilege.

[F1fan]

I don't know whether this is legal or not but given how clearly the terms and conditions are stated and the prices the cars seem to sell for (well below normal dealer prices) it doesn't seem unfair. Given the SOGA is partially about reasonableness I'm not sure how any customer could take it to court and make it stand up?

If you buy a car dirt cheap, with declared faults AND a warning it should be considered as needing further repairs how can you expect normal after sales service?

 

There are loads of dodgy dealers around who charge full retail prices and then stick 'sold as seen, no warranty given or implied' on the bottom of the receipt in tiny letters - knowing full well half the cars they sell are knackered and they intend to tell the customer to f-off should anything go wrong.

 

The last car I bought I paid absolutely top whack for because it was coming from an apparently respectable dealer and in 'mint' condition....... needless to say I still got screwed over when it broke down 800 miles later. A least this dealer is totally upfront about the situation - if I had mechanical knowledge and/or a contingency fund I would consider it

 

I'm not sure how the unlimited test drive would work though - who is responsible for insuring that?

[oddjobbob]

They can't make it stand up. If you buy something on the basis that's it's for spares or repair then if it breaks into 2000 pieces on the way home you own every one of them.

 

 

But he ha excellent feedback, you can test drive the car all you want to, so it's the same as buying a car in the sold as seen bit at BCA excpeth that you can't even open the bonnet at BCA now!

 

 

I'd buy a car from them, but then I know what I'm looking at, if you don't know, take someone who does, or don't buy.

 

 

The insurance cover will be ok if he has demonstration cover, it's surprisingly affordable on a trade policy, and as long as the car has a current MOT then the insurance will cover them.

[sailor sam]

Not wishing to prolong this thread to the point of it becoming the typical "point scoring" argument, but I think we will agree to disagree on this Bob.

 

While I would agree that it's refreshing to see a trader as open and frank as this, but its still dosn't change the simple fact that any trader can spout as many terms and policies as he likes... it dosn't mean to say that such terms can avoid the SOGA completely. You mention the term "sold as seen", well you should know that term made by a trader is about as use as a ash tray on a motor bike legally.

 

And I still am not convinced that you can advertise a car for sale as "spares or repair" (which means it's a non-runner) to a member of the public and then say it can be test driven. I think a judge would find that very contradictory as far as the description of the car was concerned. Personally I think this is the greatest grey area in this. AFAIK, if you sell a car as "spares or repair" to a member of the public, it cannot be driven away and as such, offering test drives surely means in fact the car is being sold for the purpose of what it is intended for.

[rds60h]

Sailor Sam, you are making an assumption ! "spares or repairs" (which means it's a non-runner)"........................................No it does not mean it's a non-runner, it means exactly as it states "for spares or repairs".........................that repair may only be a scratch requiring touch-up or a bulb replacing, or in some cases a new engine or clutch or whatever else.

No where is the trader stating that the vehicle is a non-runner or unroadworthy..........................Spares or repairs, means exactly that, it may or may not require substanstial work and therefore is sold as not to retail standard and thus cheaper than retail value.

[king12345]

Sailor Sam, you are making an assumption ! "spares or repairs" (which means it's a non-runner)"........................................No it does not mean it's a non-runner, it means exactly as it states "for spares or repairs".........................that repair may only be a scratch requiring touch-up or a bulb replacing, or in some cases a new engine or clutch or whatever else.

No where is the trader stating that the vehicle is a non-runner or unroadworthy..........................Spares or repairs, means exactly that, it may or may not require substanstial work and therefore is sold as not to retail standard and thus cheaper than retail value.

Agree.
I could sell a car for spares even if roadworthy because of a fault which would be too expensive to repair but would not affect the safety of the car, i.e. slipping clutch, turbo charger not working.
Again, I don't think he's doing anything wrong and in fact he's being very honest in his description.
What I would say is: if you're not an expert mechanic don't buy, if you are then you could end up getting a bargain.
I remember a car dealer close by me who use to buy dozens of cars every week on auction and then sell them as for spares or parts.
I bought a very cheap 10 year old Peugeot from him and he lasted me 6 years without opening the bonnet.
I only wanted an old banger for 6 months at the time, but then I was lucky and I kept it until rust got the better of it.
I didn't even change or check the oil in the 6 years and when I scrapped it I drove it to the scrapyard.

[sailor sam]

As I said, we will agree to disagree. IMO describing a car for sale as "spares or repair" is implying that it cannot be driven or is not "fit for the purpose" at the point of sale. To me the trader is simply using the term so he can avoid the SOGA coming back and biting him in the bum. This may be perfectly ok when selling to another trader but i'm not sure it is fully cosha selling to Joe Public this way.

 

Also, I still say that promoting test drives could be considered as saying the car in fact is drive-able and as such, must be fit for the purpose. Do we also know if the car is taxed, insured and has an MOT to enable it to be test driven?

 

Anyway, I am highly unlikely to purchase a car in this way so I think I am done here.

[heliosuk]

Spares or repair does no imply it cannot be driven or is not fit for purpose at all Sam. I have same said scenario at the moment. Saxo has MOT, is insured but not taxed. Is worth more breaking it up than retailing it so the buyer buys and it's up to them what they do with the car. It drives well, will probably get another MOT but I could not vouch for it's future reliability. Sure someone might come along and decide to run it as a going concern, conversely they might want to break it. What they want to do with it is not my problem. That's what the dealer is doing and saying and warning. And I am selling to Joe Public.

 

Fortunately I'm not a trader but if I was that's the deal.

[sailor sam]

Like I said Helio, we will agree to disagree on this one. As you say, your sale is different as you are not a trader.