Am I liable to take back my privately sold car, if problems were found after the sale?

[ruchi175]

An update: I spoke to a friend and he knew a solicitor in training who pretty much assured me whatever was discussed on this post and he spoke to Mr J on my behalf where he him know that i have not knowingly misled him in anyway and this was a private sell done in good faith. I let it rest and got an sms from Mr. J today

 

"Morning R, After receiving a call from your trainee solicitor I was prompted to investigate further. I now have obtained hard evidence of the clutch actuator was reported as faulty before you sold the car to me therefore proving you were aware before the sale of the car to me. Please be aware I have now contacted Lincolnshire police incident ref: xxxxxxxxxx. Hertfordshire police have also been informed incident ref: HC-xxxxxxx-xxxxxxx. Now having obtained this evidence I am more than happy to pursue this case through the legal system where I will be claiming full costs and any costs incurred to prove you have fraudulently misled me which is against the law. If you wish to avoid legal action and costs please contact me before the previously mentioned 7 day deadline. Look forward to speaking with you soon. J"

 

I had the car only for 11 months and in the 11 months the only 3 times i have had anything done or checked are for MOT, Cam belt change and a new battery. I haven't serviced it and got no report from any of these 3 interaction that there was a fault with my car.

 

If he does prove there was a report of the fault he is talking about outside my ownership period. am i liable? I am just concerned cos it could be a case that the full service history had any such detail somewhere it was a 10 yr old car i hadn't gone through the whole of it, not that it would make much sense to me. Only thing i am a 100%sure of is that in my 11 months of ownership there was no fault known or reported. Am i still in the clear? Also any idea why he is reporting to police?

Edited October 4, 2013 by ruchi175

[Surfer01]

IMHO it may have been foolish to get your trainee solicitor to contact the person as there could be other repercussions, but I may be wrong. Call his bluff and contact both police forces and inquire about the references which will probably relate to something else as the police will NOT become involved in civil matters.

If prove to be false I am afraid he may have shot himself in the foot by trying to intimidate you which is an offence. Please take this advice and for the moment I suggest that you ignore any calls etc unless you receive legal papers and then come back here for further advice. The advice given on this thread is good and may be better than any trainee solicitor can provide.

[ruchi175]

Thanks @Surfer I appreciate your honest advice. I admit I just wanted someone else to communicate with him since it was taking its toll one me emotionally and at work. Having recently gone through a painful divorce I couldn't ask my ex husband to talk on my behalf either. I just wanted someone else who knew a bit more about cars and laws to talk to him to find out what the concerns were. I'll refrain from initiating any further communication till i get the court papers. I did send him a short reply where i reiterated to him that there were no known fault during my ownership and i haven't misled him. Should i be looking out for a real solicitor to get my defense in order? Also I'd appreciate if someone can throw any light on what if he proves the fault existed before i bought it?

[Surfer01]

Thanks @Surfer I appreciate your honest advice. I admit I just wanted someone else to communicate with him since it was taking its toll one me emotionally and at work. Having recently gone through a painful divorce I couldn't ask my ex husband to talk on my behalf either. I just wanted someone else who knew a bit more about cars and laws to talk to him to find out what the concerns were. I'll refrain from initiating any further communication till i get the court papers. I did send him a short reply where i reiterated to him that there were no known fault during my ownership and i haven't misled him. Should i be looking out for a real solicitor to get my defense in order? Also I'd appreciate if someone can throw any light on what if he proves the fault existed before i bought it?

 

What is his proof about you having knowledge of the clutch issue? Don't worry about a "real" solicitor at the moment as it is unlikely to progress any further as he will probably lose. I doubt if he can use the Misrepresentations Act to bring a case.

Did you do a check with those police authorities as you should follow that up just in case and then keep them on the back burner in case he is foolish enough to do court?

BTW if he continues to harasses you with texts or emails, I am fairly sure there is a letter advising that harassment is a criminal offence under the Protection from Harassment Act.

[goodatresearch]

What incident has he reported to the police, he is being very vague. Take surferso1's advice and make enquiries with the police. I think you will find the police will be mystified as this appears to be a civil matter. Plus if the police thought you may be guilty of a criminal offence, they would have contacted you by now. Im sure the trainee solicitor was only trying to be helpful but it would be better to stay off the phone and just tell him that if hes not happy you will see him in court. As to his reference to SOGA - its not relevant to private sales.

 

Off course it should be roadworthy, unless you told the buyer otherwise. He would have to prove in court that you knew it wasnt roadworthy. Any report from this particular garage, as already stated on here, there have been complaints of unnecessary work being carried out. Plus if he was foolish enough to go to court there are rules on expert evidence, it wouldnt just be a case of heres the report from Kwik Fit, its water tight give me my money.

 

Hes trying his arm, dont give in to him and document everything.

[ruchi175]

Hi everyone as mentioned in my previous post i did send him a short text to say that i haven't done anything deliberately and he has responded. Here are the texts

 

Hi J, thanks for bringing this to my attention. As I've mentioned earlier I was not aware and had no knowledge of any problems with the clutch till you mentioned it to me. In the 11months I've had the car, I've had no problems and all that was done was an MOT, a battery change and a cam belt change as I mentioned in the advert. Other than that I've no knowledge of any problems with the car's clutch occurring during my ownership. Regards, R

 

And his reply

 

Hi R, I don’t understand, the problem is not the clutch it’s the clutch actuator which makes the car un-roadworthy and unsafe to drive, as stated by Citroen main dealer Lincoln. It is alone an offence to sell an un-roadworthy car. Also this comes under miss description as per your advert and me asking you by text (recorded) is there anything wrong with the car. I have now written evidence to state that the clutch actuator was reported faulty as far back as 2012. It is impossible to drive the car that long and not notice the problem, as I only drove the car home and the gearbox disengaged. To avoid me now filling for small claims court for the full cost of the vehicle and further cost, I propose you collect the vehicle and return all my money £1,300 cash. I look forward to your response J

 

I haven't yet responded to his texts. Few points to note though with his reply

 

1. He says he drive home on the day of sale to realize the gear disengages but he contacted me only after 18 days. That doesn't seem right also i haven't held a licence for even an year and it was an automatic as long as the car moved on accelerator and stopped at brakes its running fine for me along with MOT's etc.

2. Since i have mentioned i owned the car for only 11 months he should have known that in 2012 i had the car only for nov & dec last two months but his reply is still vague stating he has evidence of fault reported in 2012 (not in the period of my ownership i reckon)

3. Now he is asking for his money back and not the option to pay him for the part.

 

As per Surfer01 and other's advice i called up Lincolnshire police yesterday and mentioned I'm in a dispute with the buyer of my car and he has quoted me a reference with you. He said he couldnt give out any information because of data protection act but he asked me the outline and i briefed him and he said first and foremost this is a Civil matter no police will get involved so don't worry about chasing up the Hertfordshire reference either. You have to go to CAB & consult solicitor and he asked if i had sold as seen receipt and if my advert was honest, i said yes and he said the guy doesn't have a leg to stand on is my personal opinion. And he asked me to lose no sleep over it.

 

Also Mr. J has sent me a written signed for letter today which is a copy of his first email and the Lincolnshire co-op report which says advice not to drive.

[Conniff]

Just to make things clear. This is an automatic and as such does not have a clutch. The clutch in question is an internal gearbox clutch, a fault which will not render the car un-roadworthy or dangerous.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Conniff
correct typo

[Surfer01]

Do NOT respond any more either by letter, etxt or any other form of communication. He had the car for 18 days before deciding to reject it? He is having a Laff! Continue to ignore his demands unless he gets threatening and harasses you. If he does, then some back here for more advice.

[Conniff]

As above, do not respond to any more texts, emails, letters or phone calls.

 

Just forget it now and get on with your life.

[ruchi175]

Thanks again Conniff and Surfer01 really appreciate the help and support you have provided in this forum. I was told by consumer helpline of CAB to send a letter in writing for better records if and when it does end up in court. Instead I'll just take your advice and ignore him. I'll continue to post any further updates here if he contacts me again in as much detail as possible hopefully its going to help someone in future.

[ericsbrother]

so basically the bloke went into a police station and a report was put on the CAD system. This means nothing other than what he reported was noted. If you went into a police station and asked them what the CAD meant they would tell you and give you a reference number which tallied with your enquiry.

You can write a final letter saying that the vehicle was to the best of your knowledge as described and that "caveat emptor" applies and that he could have commissioned an independent examination by the AA or similar before purchase but chose not to and that you will not enter into further correspondence about the matter.

Block any further texts or calls.

[noddy997]

(I have skimmed over this topic)

 

I will give you option number 4:

 

Tell him that if he contacts you again you will go to the police as he is harrassing you. The car was "sold as seen" as is every car sold privately. You dont know if he has gone and cause the damage himself to the vehicle - he could have!

 

 

The buyer should do any checks prior to sale and exchanging money/car. My friend he is taking you for a ride, you sound like someone with lack of knowledge / a kind, soft type of person who others might think they can take you for a ride.

 

I sold an old Golf once and it has knocking noises when the buyer test drove it, he came back the next morning with 2 lads saying "give me my money back as there is a problem with the gearbox and you didnt tell me this, and I will call the police" my reply was "here is your sold as seen receipt, I had told you I dont know why there is a knocking noise and you still bought the car, if you wasnt happy you shouldnt have, please call the police as they wont help you, now get off my property." He was a big Eastern European...

 

Another time I was selling a 10 year old car, and the 2 guys that came were so fussy saying there is a little scratch here or there - seriosuly the car is 10 years old, not 10 days old!

 

You have to be stern in such situations.

 

And for the record, a car is "unroadworthy" (or potentially unroadworthy) when it has no MOT certificate (not for cars under 3 years old) or it has failed its MOT test. Or if the car DOES have an MOT certificate but there is an issue on the car that would fail its MOT then it can be considered as unroadworthy - i.e. bold tyres which would not allow you to stop safely.

 

If you sold a car without MOT or Tax it is the buyer's responsibility to either tax and MOT it or have it transported on a trailer - it is no way your responsibility

Edited October 10, 2013 by noddy997

[king12345]

Car was sold "as seen".

He had it for 18 days, then found out the gearbox was faulty?

He's having a laugh!

Tell him to take you to court.

As many here have said, he's just a chancer who probably found a car he likes more after buying yours.

Once I purchased an Astra privately as seen.

Two days later the turbo charger broke.

I was advised by cab that because I had signed the "as seen" paper, the responsibility to inspect the car thoroughly laid with me.

The seller, if sued, needed just to say that there was no fault at point of sale.

This is the risk of buying privately.

Let him take you to court.

[barns66]

Hi do not know much about cars or about the law,just a little puzzled as in the invoice you where sent.are the Co-operative Motor Group on Tritton Way Lincoln the same people as Kwik Fit on Newark Road Lincoln,as both names are on what was sent to you

 

 

barns66

[j66]

A working gearbox is not required for the car to pass the MOT and that's the roadworthiness test that is used as benchmark in this country. In my view his unfit for the road argument is a non runner. If the car wasn't changing gear properly when it was sold he would have been back to you in a few days, not over two weeks later, it's entirely possible that the gearbox has gone wrong after you sold the car.

 

Private sale, you're not a car expert so your description in your advert, though done to the best of your knowledge and experience is not definitive and should be treated as such by any buyer.

[king12345]

A working gearbox is not required for the car to pass the MOT and that's the roadworthiness test that is used as benchmark in this country. In my view his unfit for the road argument is a non runner. If the car wasn't changing gear properly when it was sold he would have been back to you in a few days, not over two weeks later, it's entirely possible that the gearbox has gone wrong after you sold the car.

 

Private sale, you're not a car expert so your description in your advert, though done to the best of your knowledge and experience is not definitive and should be treated as such by any buyer.

Ditto this.
Spot on.

[gpmsc]

When the purchaser inspected the car were there any warning lights illuminated on the instrument panel? It need not be the EM light, indicated by a spanner through an engine symbol, my car flashes the abs warning lamp for a transmission problem . Any blip will put an error code in the ECU and it will remain resident until cleared down or rectified ie a drop of water in an injector will clear its self but it will show as a misfire error in the memory until cleared.

 

The codes seem strange too my data shows the following

 

P1804 Transmission 4-wheel drive High indicator circuit failure where as P1755 is Intermediate Speed Sensor (ISS) Malfunction P1783 Transmission Overtemperature Condition, Generic OBD Error Code Details for Clutch position sensor P0805

 

I have never pulled one of these boxes apart but it is possible for autoboxes to overheat and do strange things if the transmission fluid is low this may have happened in the past and caused no damage to the box, but the ECU was never cleared down.

 

I have found on a service I have been presented with a list of OBD2 CAN Bus faults as long as your arm (the car seemed fine all the time I drove it) and the cost to fix. Scanned the data port cleared the faults down took the car back and 99% of the faults were no longer there. But a £900 was reduced to a £200 bill, make of it what you want this has happened with both indipendent garages as well as main dealers.

 

Gerry

 

Just as a foot note the actuator seems to be a stock fault with Citroen's. On the scribbled report it looks to read Can coms failure I expect this is short for CAN Bus which would indicate the protocol between the scanner and the ECU did not "handshake" so the P codes can not be relied on

Edited October 13, 2013 by gpmsc
typo error

[Prolix]

It's not true that the private sellers are not caught by SOGA. S13 - Description - covers all contracts where there is a sale by description, so private sellers can misdescribe goods. They are not bound by S14 - Quality - because it specifically refers to goods being sold in the course of a business. Regardless, this guy hasn't a leg to stand on. Who knows what he was up to with the car in the period after sale and before contacting the seller. He could have been rallying it!

[ruchi175]

Hi gpmsc

 

Nope there were no warning lights illuminated on the instrument panel and he had driven it around fro about 15 mins before he was ready to buy the car off me.

 

When the purchaser inspected the car were there any warning lights illuminated on the instrument panel? It need not be the EM light, indicated by a spanner through an engine symbol, my car flashes the abs warning lamp for a transmission problem . Any blip will put an error code in the ECU and it will remain resident until cleared down or rectified ie a drop of water in an injector will clear its self but it will show as a misfire error in the memory until cleared.

 

The codes seem strange too my data shows the following

 

P1804 Transmission 4-wheel drive High indicator circuit failure where as P1755 is Intermediate Speed Sensor (ISS) Malfunction P1783 Transmission Overtemperature Condition, Generic OBD Error Code Details for Clutch position sensor P0805

 

I have never pulled one of these boxes apart but it is possible for autoboxes to overheat and do strange things if the transmission fluid is low this may have happened in the past and caused no damage to the box, but the ECU was never cleared down.

 

I have found on a service I have been presented with a list of OBD2 CAN Bus faults as long as your arm (the car seemed fine all the time I drove it) and the cost to fix. Scanned the data port cleared the faults down took the car back and 99% of the faults were no longer there. But a £900 was reduced to a £200 bill, make of it what you want this has happened with both indipendent garages as well as main dealers.

 

Gerry

 

Just as a foot note the actuator seems to be a stock fault with Citroen's. On the scribbled report it looks to read Can coms failure I expect this is short for CAN Bus which would indicate the protocol between the scanner and the ECU did not "handshake" so the P codes can not be relied on