Contravention 31 - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited

[atonu]

Today I received a nasty PCN by Waltham Forest Council for my alleged contravention 31.

 

I don't deserve it because I was waiting before a red light with cars in front of me. There was a yellow box at the road junction. The light changed to green and cars in the front began to move and so did

 

I. Just after a few seconds suddenly the car in the front stopped and I had to stop too to avoid collision. But I was on that yellow box. The reason of that sudden stopping was that one car ahead stopped to give way to pedestrians crossing and the other cars stopped too because of that and the ripple effect was upon me.

 

I moved only after the car in my front moved. It was for a very brief period. But the stupid CCTV sent me a photo of my car on yellow box but it does not show the whole process of my moving into and stopping in the yellow box.

 

Please help me how to appeal.

 

Many thanks.

Edited April 19, 2013 by citizenB

[DBC]

This should be moved to the correct section of the forum. This section is for private parking tickets.

[atonu]

Please tell me how I can move to the correct forum.

[DBC]

One of the mods will have to do that for you.

[citizenB]

Done

 

Atonu, you don't have to do anything, it is purely administrative.

[sailor sam]

There should be video footage available for you to view. It would not be possible for us to advise accurately without seeing the image. Plus it would be useful if we knew the location.

 

Please Note

 

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[atonu]

I have seen the video. Here is the link:

http://sys.viewmypcn.co.uk/Upload/58b872db1e2dcba0e535b0ac92dfc4dbe2fe1ebf.MP4

The second video is relevant, not the first one. My car is the red Ford Ka. The video does not show my entering into the box junction. It only shows my stopping. I entered the box junction when it was clear to enter and I had to stop at the end of this box junction because the car in my front stopped suddenly.

Please advise how to appeal.

Many thanks.

[sailor sam]

The offence is complete when you stop within the box so showing you entering the box is not relevant. The rule is that you should not enter the box until your intended exit route is clear (i.e. so that you can clear the box). The CCTV shows that you were already stationary within the box meaning you entered it while the exit was obstructed hence the PCN.

 

Not sure there is any point appealing but someone else may have a different opinion.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[atonu]

I may be wrong but I disagree with Sailor Sam because I entered the box when there was a smooth running traffic in front of me indicating that I could clear the box. I couldn't anticipate that there would be a sudden traffic jam forcing me to stop in the box. What Sailor Sam is saying that I entered the box although I saw the exit was blocked. That is not possible considering that I am a careful. mature driver. So there are two versions of what happened. Only the CCTV showing my entry would establish the correct version but they don't have the CCTV of my entry.

[citizenkain]

sailor sam is right,your exit was not clear

[citizenkain]

you had no exit,you should not have entered the box,you should have stopped till your exit was clear not trundled on hoping that it would clear,how long have you been driving?

[DaveyBT]

Everyone above is both right and wrong. The offence is complete if you enter the box while your exit is not clear. So YES it is important to see the video of the situation when you entered the box otherwise there is no relevant evidence. IF you entered the box when your exit was clear, but then the exit became blocked for some reason then you are not guilty of the offence. HOWEVER, in your case you appear to have entered the box while anticipating that your exit would be clear, which is not the same thing, therefore you would be guilty. The appeals panel PATAS has established that (in their view) each driver (in a moving traffic stream) should stop at the edge of the box until the vehicle in front has cleared the box and your exit is clear. Obviously that's not the sensible way to keep traffic moving but no one said that the law had to be sensible. So, back to your video - just saying that you're guilty because you stopped in the box is not sufficient. The evidence has to show whether the exit was clear or not when you entered the box, and if so when / how it became blocked by the light blue car in front of you.

[sailor sam]

I may be wrong but I disagree with Sailor Sam because I entered the box when there was a smooth running traffic in front of me indicating that I could clear the box. I couldn't anticipate that there would be a sudden traffic jam forcing me to stop in the box. What Sailor Sam is saying that I entered the box although I saw the exit was blocked. That is not possible considering that I am a careful. mature driver. So there are two versions of what happened. Only the CCTV showing my entry would establish the correct version but they don't have the CCTV of my entry.

 

I simply can't believe anyone who claims to be a 'careful mature driver' would make such a statement! If you use that in an appeal, they will have a field day with you.

 

From the CCTV footage, it is quite clear that the road was busy in the direction you were travelling thus you should of made sure there was sufficient room between you and the vehicle in front of you to enable you to stop prior to the box if the car in front stopped. As I said previously, what happened on the entry to the box is totally irrelevant. The offence occurs if you are forced to stop within the box because your exit is blocked.

 

 

“no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[sailor sam]

Everyone above is both right and wrong. The offence is complete if you enter the box while your exit is not clear. So YES it is important to see the video of the situation when you entered the box otherwise there is no relevant evidence. IF you entered the box when your exit was clear, but then the exit became blocked for some reason then you are not guilty of the offence. HOWEVER, in your case you appear to have entered the box while anticipating that your exit would be clear, which is not the same thing, therefore you would be guilty. The appeals panel PATAS has established that (in their view) each driver (in a moving traffic stream) should stop at the edge of the box until the vehicle in front has cleared the box and your exit is clear. Obviously that's not the sensible way to keep traffic moving but no one said that the law had to be sensible. So, back to your video - just saying that you're guilty because you stopped in the box is not sufficient. The evidence has to show whether the exit was clear or not when you entered the box, and if so when / how it became blocked by the light blue car in front of you.

 

No it isn't! The offence is complete when you stop within the box. The CCTV shows the OP's car stationary within the box for at least 8 seconds. Had the car been moving (even at a slow pace) then the offence did not occur. There may of been a defense had the junction been a cross roads where another vehicle may of entered from a different direction in front of the OP's path preventing him to clear the box, but that is obviously not the case here.

 

OP of course is free to appeal if he chooses (nothing to lose within the discount period) but my money is on it failing. Happy to be proved wrong so please let us know the outcome.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[DaveyBT]

“no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”

 

Exactly - the offence is related to ENTERING the box while the exit is blocked, not stopping within the box because the exit was clear and then became blocked (for example). The evidence of what the situation was when the driver entered the box is therefore crucial for the prosecution.

If the exit was clear (on entry) and then became blocked then the evidence of what the situation was when the driver entered the box, and then what happened subsequently is then crucial for the defendant.

[sailor sam]

“no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”

 

Exactly - the offence is related to ENTERING the box while the exit is blocked, not stopping within the box because the exit was clear and then became blocked (for example). The evidence of what the situation was when the driver entered the box is therefore crucial for the prosecution.

If the exit was clear (on entry) and then became blocked then the evidence of what the situation was when the driver entered the box, and then what happened subsequently is then crucial for the defendant.

 

 

So what happens if you entered a box at a large junction when you exit was blocked BUT by the time you reached the exit, the traffic had started moving again enabling you to continue moving?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[DaveyBT]

“no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”

 

EXACTLY - the offence is to ENTER the junction knowing that the vehicle has to stop, etc. If the situation changes AFTER the driver enters the junction then no offence is committed. If the exit was blocked when the driver entered the box then the evidence of what the situation was when he entered is crucial for the prosecution. If the exit was clear ( and later became blocked) then the evidence of what the situation was when he entered, and what happened subsequently is crucial for the defendant.

[sailor sam]

“no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”

 

EXACTLY - the offence is to ENTER the junction knowing that the vehicle has to stop, etc. If the situation changes AFTER the driver enters the junction then no offence is committed. If the exit was blocked when the driver entered the box then the evidence of what the situation was when he entered is crucial for the prosecution. If the exit was clear ( and later became blocked) then the evidence of what the situation was when he entered, and what happened subsequently is crucial for the defendant.

 

You are completely missing the point. The offence is only complete if you have to STOP within the box. If you enter it with slow moving traffic in front of you, the chances of you having to stop within the box are very high. But if you are able to continue moving after ENTERING the box, then no offence is committed. Clearly in the OPs case, he must of entered the box either when the traffic was stationary on the exit side or he entered the box without giving sufficient space between himself and the car in front causing him to stop behind the car in front. In any event the CCTV shows him stationary in the box thus attracting the PCN.

 

BTW, why do you mention 'the prosecution' and 'the defendant?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[DaveyBT]

I believe that you are wrong - based on many threads in Moneybox Junction and Pepipoo but there is no point the two of us going round in circles. It would be good to hear from someone else (preferably a relevant lawyer)

 

BTW, why do you mention 'the prosecution' and 'the defendant?

Sorry - slip of the tongue. Not sure what you call the issuer / receiver of a PCN under Civil Enforcement. The receiver becomes the Appellant if he challenges the Notice.

Edited April 20, 2013 by DaveyBT

[Horsen]

How could the exit have been clear when the car in front of you was stopped just outside the box. Either you were that close to them and just anticipated the exit was going to be clear or, they were already stopped and you entered the box hoping that they would have moved? It does seem to be harsh when it is obvious that you were only there for seconds, maybe the operator has a target to reach for handing out tickets and they were down on numbers.

[DaveyBT]

So what happens if you entered a box at a large junction when you exit was blocked but by the time you reached the exit, the traffic had started moving again enabling you to continue moving?

 

You have committed the offence by entering the box while your exit is blocked (i.e. you will have to stop within the box). Whether anyone sees you or issues a pcn or not is another matter. The fact that the exit subsequently became clear and you didn't actually have to stop is irrelevant. I admit that there is a grey area around anticipating that the exit will become clear but the PATAS precedent / thinking on this is also clear.

[Kiki1]

There are multiple cars in front of the Ka and none of them appear to have 'suddenly' taken a different path that would lead a driver into believing the junction exit was clear at the point of entry.

 

The only possible explanation I can think of however is whether the car immediately in front of you turned out of the side road without giving you a chance to stop once you had committed yourself.

[DaveyBT]

Just after a few seconds suddenly the car in the front stopped and I had to stop too to avoid collision. But I was on that yellow box. The reason of that sudden stopping was that one car ahead stopped to give way to pedestrians crossing and the other cars stopped too because of that and the ripple effect was upon me.

This was from the original post. The exit wasn't actually clear when the OP entered the box (he just anticpated that it would be - but was mistaken). I can't see any ground for appeal BUT there is no evidence of what the situation was at the moment he entered the box. The video should have covered this.

[sailor sam]

So what happens if you entered a box at a large junction when you exit was blocked but by the time you reached the exit, the traffic had started moving again enabling you to continue moving?

 

You have committed the offence by entering the box while your exit is blocked (i.e. you will have to stop within the box). Whether anyone sees you or issues a pcn or not is another matter. The fact that the exit subsequently became clear and you didn't actually have to stop is irrelevant. I admit that there is a grey area around anticipating that the exit will become clear but the PATAS precedent / thinking on this is also clear.

 

No it's not irrelevant! If you enter the box when the exit is blocked but clears while you are crossing through the box thus you are able to keep moving, then no offence is committed!

 

Se here and pay particular attention to the first paragraph;

 

http://ticketfighter.co.uk/yellow-box-junctions/

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[sailor sam]

There are multiple cars in front of the Ka and none of them appear to have 'suddenly' taken a different path that would lead a driver into believing the junction exit was clear at the point of entry.

 

The only possible explanation I can think of however is whether the car immediately in front of you turned out of the side road without giving you a chance to stop once you had committed yourself.

 

The position of the car(s) in front shows that is not the case. The only car which is out of line is the OP's. In this case the CCTV only needs to show the OP stopped which it does. The CCTV lasts for 8 seconds before the OP moves off so for all we know the OP could of been stationary for a lot longer.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.