Suspension

[Serendipity 42]

Hi, have received email, need to attend disciplinary on 26th July. 3 changes that I admitted to at investigation have been substantiated, also mentioned i was acting in good faith and in line with departmental practice as i saw it. I admitted I made changes there was only one I could not explain and thought I may have hit the wrong drop down box. (mistake).

 

Good news is all people interviewed seem to be in agreement that guidelines are blurry and manager is saying, they are in process of claryfying them, one witness has actually said I have gone to some lengths to improve the system and that every month it is stressful for all of us.

 

I am surprised, I expected things to sound pretty poor particularly from my manager who I have a pretty bad relationship with, however not sure what to expect still.

 

Should I line up a witness that can prove my manager is instrumental in the interpretation of the guidelines, or assume the reason she is being supportive is because she is aware I may be able to do this.

[Emmzzi]

It's not a court of law and you re not expected to go round getting witness statements.

 

Do yo feel a co worker is likely to testify against the boss anyway? People often say the will then bottle it.

 

If you feel key people have not been interviewed, ask for the disciplinary to be stopped, and reconvened when the investigation has included them.

[smokejumper]

Emmzzi,

 

Although not a court of law......there are usually high stakes involved ie; dismissal.

 

In my opinion you need to get as much evidence together to put your side of the story and prove it correct. If that involves witnesses on your side then it has to be done, you have to be careful, sometimes a witness may get you in more trouble when the other side questions them.

 

If they have relied on witnesses then you have the right to question them at the hearing The employer when carrying out their investigation are trying to gather evidence against you and usually don't ask questions in your favour.

 

This my experience with my company, that employees around 10000 people.

 

I've been to a few hearings now and don't really think it is fair or impartial, the union agree with me.

 

But that's my employer and they carry out a lot of underhanded stuff, including putting main union players on discipline charges while major negotiations are taking place , therefore stopping them from taking part.

 

Just my opinion and experience, hopefully most other employers play fair, after all it's not in their best interests to let someone go unless they are more trouble than their worth.

[Emmzzi]

smokeginger, most employees are asked not to contact anyone at work while on suspension. Your suggested course of action wouldb e a breach of that and possibly interpreted as witness tampering or in the worst cases intimidation and harassment (I am sure the OP would not do this but that is why the guideline is there!)

 

The employer is generally trying to find out the truth, not "gather evidence against you." I'm sorry your employer doesn't do this, but not every employer is evil!! Of course the union would not agree with me, their default stance is often to protect the employee against the evils, else why would people pay them subs and why would they have a role in the union...

 

Anyway, my main point is that if you go in as a combo of Miss Marple and Rumpole of the bailey, you are doing it wrong

 

 

Best just tell the investigator who you would like spoken to about what.

[smokejumper]

"Smokeginger" ;-) you need to explain that one to me.

 

Point taken Emmzzi.......My employer, also states not to contact other staff etc, but union officials are other staff. Also I can't see how they can legally stop you speaking to other employees, what if your wife works there ( hold on though, that wouldn't be a bad excuse to stay in the pub and not come home ).

 

In my case I just wrote to my company and asked them to arrange the witnesses I required, I also supplied a list of questions I wanted asked of someone they would not call, but had made a remark about me in a report. He had not made a complaint, but my company made it into gross misconduct allegation.

 

Emmzzi, I respect your experience and I am not trying to upset you, you have given me advice and I'm grateful for it.

 

perhaps my employers are more lenient with me and see no harm in the way I conduct my defence and the proceedings. After all as you say they should be after the truth, it's cost the company a lot of money on training etc , so in their interests to keep you, if you are not a total waste of time.

 

Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread with my ramblings and as I think I tried to explain Emmzzi, I have nothing but the highest respect for your experience and knowledge

[Emmzzi]

smokeginger is the result of typing without coffee My apologies!

 

I am hoping Serendipity's case is as hopeful as it now sounds and all goes well. I suspect a combination of our experience will be very useful should that not be the case, but let's give them a go first....

[Serendipity 42]

Hi, I have now received all info in hard copy and it is clear who made the allegation, I am extremely disappointed at the stance this particular person has taken, since she has been instrumental in making changes on the system as per managers instructions for the past 4 years and is often heard to refer to some of the changes as "curve balls" as dictated by the manager.

 

Emmzzi, if as you say I have the right to question witnesses they are providing it would be useful for me to actually put this person on the spot and ask for an explanation of this terminology, can they refuse to let me do this at the meeting?

 

Also I noted that my manager had a union rep at the investigatory meeting,could this mean they have also been suspenced?

 

Thanks smoke jumper for your input! I love your new name!

[Emmzzi]

I would check the format first - it would be very unusual to run it like court case with bot sides cross examining, relying on written statements is far more common.

 

Did you ask, or were given, an explanation of why the rep was there? Was your manager questioning, or being questioned? No one has a right to a rep at a simple investigatory discussion....

[Serendipity 42]

No explanation of why she had a rep with her. As I understand it she was being questioned her statement is included with the information.

[Emmzzi]

well, it may just have been precautionary. don't read anything into it

[smokejumper]

I had one of my witness/accusers have a rep present when he made a statement, noticed it when I received a copy.

well, it may just have been precautionary. don't read anything into it

[Serendipity 42]

Yes that's when I spotted it.

 

As you have been there before smokejumper, can you give me any pointers on what is likely to happen and what they will be expecting from me, I.e. bullet points in mitigation or the whole thing from the beginning as happened at investigation?

[Emmzzi]

serendipity, have you asked them about the process and witnesses yet?

[Serendipity 42]

Hi Emmzzi they have said in the paperwork that 3 people will be attending as witnesses and if I want a witness there or any paperwork I need to let them know by this Friday.

[smokejumper]

In my opinion and with my employer, they are very nice, it's relaxed, selection of beverages and they listen intently to what you have to say, but have already made up their minds and take direction from the HR.

 

I don't think they have to adopt a set procedure as in my case I seemed to change it as it went along, but I am very assertive.

 

They go away and think about it and write to you with the outcome and award..

 

Let me read your thread again and I'll get back to you.

[Emmzzi]

so I would have a think about gentle open questions (you want to appear very reasonable) and who you would like to ask them of.

[Serendipity 42]

Will work on the open question thing.

 

Although at the moment I am back and forth one minute very optimistic the next back down in the dumps.

 

Can't believe who my accuser has turned out to be, talk about working as a team, it would seem the only bit of team this person understands is ME!

[Emmzzi]

Go and have an angry half day about it then get back into the zone. Being angry at hearings only ever make you look suspicious so as tough as it is you have to keep focused on facts, not personalities.

 

As I recall, this was about altering call records, which you did do, but which was common practice, is that right? In which case there is little point arguing innocence and much point debating mitigating circumstances.

[Serendipity 42]

When presented with the information I apparently altered, I was able to say one was a mistake that I changed back and the other was something I believed to be regular practice, I also recall asking if this would be acceptable when this other person was doing it and her reply was yes in the "managers world", that would be okay!

[smokejumper]

These disciplines are such a farce.

 

They have already heard your account, why do they have to go through it all again, procedure I guess.

 

Seems as if they don't like your account.

 

What do you think was the bit about "managers world" is she saying we don't work in the managers world and have to follow the company rules/system.

 

I also think if something is a regular practice , then it does infact become the way things are done. I think it's also know as local practice.

 

They seem quite happy for it too be done as long as not known to be aware it's going on. Or when something goes wrong.

 

I expect you are keen to get this done and over with.

[Serendipity 42]

Hi Smokejumper! what she meant, was yes she would sanction that change, although not written in the guidelines. They used to work on it together and yes they would interpret on a case by case basis, not in strict adherence to guidelines.

 

Yes just want to get it sorted now, but also very worried a decision has been reached without my input already!

[smokejumper]

Yes I'm sure they have already made up their minds, but they go through the motions to make you feel it was fair( although it doesn't feel fair)

 

I think it sounds promising, I will keep my fingers crossed for you ;-)

 

In the future, I imagine they will make you ok any deviation with your line manager before going against the policy, but then how do you prove it later, get a signature?

[Lizziebet]

Have made my own post today about my own suspension and probable disciplinary, and have asked you guys timing questions about when to put in grievance and how detailed it should be, but wanted to thank all of you, from Serendipity to his/her supporters, as I feel I have already learnt a lot from this thread.

Am trying to use the advice about not stressing, and using the suspension time to research and know more about the process. Have already picked them up on suspending me on full basic pay not full pay and benefits/bonus, and have managed to request information that means they cannot move forward with the disciplinary stage until I receive this. Am also taking the advice on board about keeping quiet and waiting for them to make the moves.

They have tried, before providing me with the information I have requested, to get me to agree to dates for a potential hearing that are just too quick and I have said so. They seem upset - I believe that they hoped to get rid of me or have me flounce out before payment of certain bonuses became due. Sadly for them I am sitting tight, making this take longer, although at the same time it is killing me and I want to prove my innocence. My situation is similar, in that it could be said that I did input incorrect information, but I only made errors because I was rushing and was under pressure. I believe a further allegation since is just malicious and proves that they have wanted me gone for a long time.

Really hope that you are vindicated, Serendipity, good luck and let us know what happens next.

[Serendipity 42]

Hi Lizibet! all very nerve racking, my meeting is tomorrow afternoon, I am prepared as I am ever going to be and have had to stop writing now, beginning to confuse myself.

 

I will update tomorrow, please keep your fingers crossed and I thank you all for your support so far!

 

So deep breath onwards and upwards, here goes nothing:-D

[honeybee13]

Good luck, Serendipity, fingers crossed for you.

 

Please come back and tell us how it's gone tomorrow, or I'll have no nails left.

 

HB