Sunday - Single Yellow Line - No signage - Ticket & Towed - Spital Street (Behind Brick Lane) ** Appeal Won**

[sam110684]

Single Yellow Line - Sunday 10th March 2013 - Spital Street - Parked at 11:15 approx

 

I decided for Mothers Day to bring my Mum into London to experience Spitalfields Market.

 

Was my first time of driving into London, so I'm not a resident or local.

 

Returned to Spital Street (Behind Brick Lane) around 13:15 to find my car along with 5 others had been towed.

 

Police Vehicle stopped and managed to help in finding out where my car was as there were no telephone numbers on signage to ring. Even the Police officers agreed that there was no signage as to make it clear about parking on a single yellow line. I didnt get any officers numbers though.

 

A local resident approached and informed me that All day Saturday you can park on single yellow lines etc. for free no problem however on Sundays restrictions are in place. He said Theres be alot of confusion regarding this.

 

Finally got to the Pound (£10 in Black Cab) and even the member of staff said that only residents would know about these restrictions and to use the fact that we are out of town residents in our letter when contesting. We live in Kent.

 

I have 27 days to contest. Please advise on best route of action. I have attached a PDF with images of everything. I would really appreciate anyone to htake the time to view.

 

As I say... there was no signage indicating parking restrictions or mentioning about on Saturdays you can park but Sundays you can't.

 

Supplied Parking Ticket, Receipt of Release (£200) and Parking fine (£65) and only at my requst an appeal form. No other information given to me or wasnt told that I could have any other information.

 

 

Many thanks

 

Sam

[Michael Browne]

It's in a Controlled Parking Zone, Mon-Fri 8.30am-7pm and Sun 8.30am- 2pm see here:

 

http://sps2ksrv.towerhamlets.gov.uk/cms_data/maps/mapSelection.html?http://cms.esriuk.com/TowerHamlets/Sites/Parking/

 

You would have passed entry signs with the Sunday restrictions times posted and within a CPZ yellow lines do not need timeplates. But even if you had not noticed them, the clue would have been the restriction times on the P&D bays ie yellow lines are not going to be unrestricted at the same time that there are restrictions on parking bays.

[Jamberson]

As Michael says, it is inside a controlled zone. A single yellow without a sign is legally perfecty OK and such a single yellow line is subject to the zone's underlying restriction, which would probably cover the time when you were there - you could enquire though, to be sure.

 

In any case, the default position is that a single yellow without a sign is 24/7, so the lack of sign next to the line isn't a good line of argument. If a driver is unaware of the zone restriction, he still should not park there.

 

A vehicle can be towed for any parking contravention, as the powers that be see fit - so I think you may struggle to win this one.

 

You could try getting the local Traffic Order for that location and check the line is as it should be, and that it really is in force on Sundays.

[Arthur Dent]

Hi Sam

 

I'm contesting a Penalty Charge Notice at the moment. I rang my local council yesterday and was put through to the Traffic Regulation Office and they were very helpful.

 

I had asked the Parking section of the council for the relevant Traffic Regulation Order (mentioned by Jamberson above) but when I spoke to the Traffic Regulation Office, they said there had been some amendments to the Traffic Regulation Order (I'll call it TRO from now on). When I said that I had asked the parking section to send me the TRO, I said "Will I get the amendments?" to which he replied "Probably not unless you have asked for them."

 

So, cutting a long story short, if you request the TRO from the council ask for any relevant amendments made to it at the same time!

 

Hope this helps,

 

Art

[sam110684]

I now understand that the location I parked unfortunately was in a CPZ but for a non-local like myself this can be very confusing when the signage is in different streets.

 

Surely towing seems over the top. A Penalty Notice I'd accept but £265 when I was causing no obstruction?? From 2pm you can park on the single line? But an hour earlier it is causing an obstruction and gets towed?

 

Aanyone else have any input as to best route of appeal.

 

What angle should I come from. Any help as to wording of letter would be appreciative.

 

As I mention... the member of staff mentioned that only locals would know bout these and that I should use this in my appeal letter??

 

Any help/advice would be great,

[green_and_mean]

 

As I mention... the member of staff mentioned that only locals would know bout these and that I should use this in my appeal letter??

 

Any help/advice would be great,

 

Surely thats the same for every single yellow line or parking bay in the UK which is why they require signs no one is going to memorise every restriction in Britain??

[Arthur Dent]

Surely towing seems over the top. A Penalty Notice I'd accept but £265 when I was causing no obstruction?? From 2pm you can park on the single line? But an hour earlier it is causing an obstruction and gets towed?

 

I'm sorry Sam. Not seeing the signs is only grounds for appeal if the signs are missing or obscured in some way. If the signs are there and clearly visible and you didn't see them, then its your mistake. I agree with you that towing seems a bit drastic, however you said in your OP that 5 other vehicles were also towed. Seems like you were treated the same as everyone else - harshly but equally.

 

If the sign was obscured in some way, like this No Loading sign nestling between two traffic lights in Sheffield, then you would have good grounds for appeal as the sign is not easily visible.

 

 

In the same way, if there was a bush obscuring the sign again you'd have grounds for appeal.

 

As you said you live in Kent, I'd use Google Street View to check for Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ) signs on all the streets where the zone is in force. Any missing signs could invalidate the whole CPZ. On roads over 5m in width, there should be 2 signs, one each side of the road. On narrower roads, only one sign is required.

 

This is what you are looking for:

 

 

Hope this is useful. Sadly, I don't think you have valid grounds to appeal from what you have said unless you can find a missing sign (you know what I mean)!

Art

[sam110684]

Totally understand its my mistake but quite clever for the council to not show any signage on the actual road...but in streets leading to it. Anyway... I'm going to go back this weekend and search at all entrances to Spital Street. Hopfully there is a missing sign or obscured sign as you mention.

 

Many thanks Arthur Dent.

 

Will post an update.

 

Thanks

[Arthur Dent]

Hi again Sam

 

Looking at the link posted by Michael above (post #2 in this thread)

 

 

I'd check each and every street entering the Red Zoned Sunday restrictions CPZ for evidence of Controlled Parking Zone signs. As you stand to reclaim £265 - it is worth doing in my book.

 

If all the signage is there and you just didn't see it, you'll probably just have to take the hit.

 

Art

[sam110684]

So does it have to be any entrance to the whole area or any entrance that leads to Spital Street only??

[Arthur Dent]

For the Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ) to be invalid just one sign has to be missing.

 

However, the signs need only be placed on the entrance to the CPZ - but on every road. You need to check every road into the CPZ. If there isn't a sign on Spital Street and the boundary of the CPZ crosses Spital Street, you should be home free.

 

If Spital Street starts inside the CPZ then you won't see a sign on the road. Bear in mind, for roads less than 5m in width, only one sign is required but if it is over 5m then it requires two signs - one on each sign.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Art

[crem]

I thought a CPZ wasn't supposed to include more than about 12 streets?

[Arthur Dent]

Don't know whether that is a regulation or simply guidance.

 

The CPZ that I'm currently having problems with in Sheffield has at least 60 streets in the Inner Zone alone - and the CPZ signs are on the entrance to the much larger Outer Zone!

 

It would be useful indeed if it was to be that the whole CPZ is invalid because there are far too many streets within it. Sheffield hasn't partitioned the Inner and Outer Zones as I've seen elsewhere (as indeen in this thread - Tower Hamlets).

 

Here's a picture of Sheffield's CPZ. If you can't sleep tonight, have a go at counting all of the streets within the Inner and Outer Zones - or just the Inner Zone if you are in a hurry!

 

 

Art

[sam110684]

It seems according to Google maps that there is NO CPZ signage entering from Hunton Street... I'm going to explore this at the weekend to confirm

 

Will keep you posted.

 

Many thanks

[green_and_mean]

It seems according to Google maps that there is NO CPZ signage entering from Hunton Street... I'm going to explore this at the weekend to confirm

 

Will keep you posted.

 

Many thanks

 

Hunton St is in the middle of the zone it doesn't need signs

[sam110684]

Ahh I see your point. Thanks. I'm going to check the entrances to the zone that lead to Spital Street and go from there,

 

Many thanks for your help,

[Arthur Dent]

Hi again Sam,

 

One idea that you may be able to explore (no idea whether it will carry any weight or not) is the size of the CPZs.

 

The Secretary of State suggests that a CPZ should include no more than around 12 streets and that it is unreasonable to expect someone to remember the parking restrictions when entering the CPZ if it is larger than this.

 

Now Tower Hamlets have several distinct areas on their map and the zones of interest as far as you are concerned - because it looks like where you parked (the yellow star on the map below) is on the border between two zones - Zone A2 and Zone A6.

 

Being charitable to Tower Hamlets and saying that Zone A2 has the regulations relevant to you, I've counted at least 44 roads in that Zone. If, as I suspect, Zone A6 applies (Zone 6 applying to the western side of Spital Street and Zone A2 applying to the eastern-side of Spital Street), then the above advice is even more in your favour, I count around 75 streets in Zone A6.

 

You may be able to contest the underlying regulation of the CPZ on the basis of its size.

 

Here's the map:

 

 

Bogs (in a post on my thread) suggested adding the following to any letter of appeal:

 

Furthermore, I understand that a no waiting restriction is regulated by order made pursuant to the RTRA 1984 and consequently a council has a statutory duty under regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 to place traffic signs that adequately convey the effect of such an order. Where CPZ’s are used then adequacy can reasonably be measured against what the DfT recommends in their publication “Operational Guidance to Local Authorities: Parking Policy & Enforcement”. Annex D in this publication is helpfully titled “Appraising the adequacy of traffic signs, plating and road markings” and paragraph D5 provides guidance on adequacy for CPZ’s;

 

D5 The Secretary of State's view is that motorists cannot reasonably be expected to read, understand and remember the parking restrictions at the entrance to a Controlled Parking Zone that covers an area of more than a dozen streets.

 

I’m informed that the CPZ I parked within covers more streets than what the Secretary of State considers reasonable to enable a CPZ entry sign to remain adequate and therefore I believe I am justified in claiming the operational period of the no waiting restriction was not adequately conveyed by traffic signs to satisfy regulations and the standard expected by the Secretary of State. It would be arrogant of the council to disagree considering the publication explicitly expresses the view of Government and was specifically produced to help councils understand what is and is not considered adequate.

 

Bogs will probably be along shortly to offer better advice. He seems to know what he's talking about!

 

Hope all of the above helps,

 

Art

[sam110684]

Art,

 

Thats great, thanks. That wording you supplied do I need to alter anything for me case??

 

I'm thinking all of these things combined may help.

 

Firstly my car was towed at 13:14 ...assuming my car was making an obstruction thats the reason for towing?? Yet at 14:00 I could park there and not be causing an obstruction? Seems over the top when Parking Ticket would have sufficed.

 

Secondly... signage...although it seems there is signage at the entrance to the zone... I still think its very hard for a non-local to clearly understand whats what (Yes I know I shouldnt have parked there if I wasnt sure) but still??

 

Thirdly the point mentioned above about the size of the CPZ,

 

I'm wondering if playing "dumb" as in not mentioning any "legal" stuff in the hope they see the honest mistake of a non-local....

 

or...

 

I go full on "legal" quotes etc.

 

Any advice?

[Arthur Dent]

Hi Sam,

 

I can't claim any credit for the wording, that came from TheBogsDollocks. You will need to tailor it to your specific needs howeverr, I'd recommend getting hold of the relevant legislation if you can to check the sections that may be relevant.

 

I don't think the 45 mins before parking was allowed will cut any ice I'm afraid, but I'm no expert in this

 

As far as "playing dumb" - I don't know. It wouldn't hurt to say (a) you are a non-local and (b) it is a first-time offence, but Sheffield City Council only allow one informal challenge - so I'd be tempted to go in with any and all legal stuff, I'd try to find the Secretary of State's advice on the size of a CPZ if you can - perhaps the good experienced folk on this forum could help out?

 

Art

Edited March 14, 2013 by Arthur Dent

[sam110684]

Hi Art,

 

Good news... I visited the area yesterday and have found that on Greatorex Street, the sign stating the CPZ zone is actually facing the wrong way. Its a one way street and can only see the sign from behind as its been hit.

 

So you cannot see it from the way you drive in. I have pictures so will include this in the appeal letter.

 

Will compose letter over the next few days and will let you have a look and see what you all think,

 

Many thanks

[Arthur Dent]

Hey Sam,

 

That sounds like a result. Don't get your hopes up just yet but it sounds very promising.

 

Is there just one sign facing the wrong way - or is there only one sign?

 

Seems that tribunals have been refusing challenges recently on what are viewed as "minor technicalities" - ie yellow lines incorrectly terminated or non-continuous because of a repair patch - as the "intention is clear".

 

I'm hoping that in my particlar case I can argue that the intention isn't clear because without the sign (or indeed examining the TRO and remembering the restriction) you wouldn't know what the restriction was for that particular bay.

 

Fingers crossed for ya,

 

Art

[sam110684]

Hi guys,

 

Just thought I'd attach (PDF) my letter that I've composed for those interested.

 

Thanks to everyone for all their comments. Will be posting tomorrow by Special Delivery.

 

Will keep you posted,

 

Fingers crossed,

[Arthur Dent]

Hi Sam,

 

To my (uneducated) eyes, that looks like a great letter.

 

Fingers crossed for ya.

 

Art

[Jamberson]

I think it's great too. This business with the PCN having to be paid prior to the right of appeal is potentially a huge can of worms for local authorities. See how it affects you in this very case? If they reject this appeal, where is your NTO/adjudication?

[sam110684]

Hey guys,

 

Just a little update... as expected...received letter of rejection yesterday. (attached)

 

Will most definitely be appealing again. In the process of composing another letter.

 

Points to highlight:

They mention I should have seen a sign on my chosen route... however they supply images of signs not on the route I took.

 

No mention of the only sign that was on my chosen route that I SHOULD have seen on route being the sign facing the wrong way down a one way street.

 

Also have failed to send me some of the info I requested.

 

Anyway... if anyone wishes to add any suggestions for my next letter please feel free.

 

 

I'll keep you posted on the next letter progress.

 

Thanks