Help court proceedings for HB fraud

[confuseduser]

Hi, a friend of mine has asked on here for some help with his case. What's happened was that his grandparents filled in and signed all his claim forms for housing benefit stating they were his landlord (which they were in the wrong) and the grandmother sent them off. His home was paid for by them but it didn't get taken out of his name due to a rouge ex-girlfrind that wouldn't remove her name from the deeds. Even the solicitor at the time the grandparents purchased the house said it was no longer his.

 

Anyway, his grandmother made him think he was entitled to HB so he let her deal with everything as he has severe mental health issues and low mental capacity. Anyway the grandparents received all the money and he hasn't seen any of it. (trust me i now know what granny was doing is wrong) BUt he got called for an IUC which he didn't attend after sending them numerous doctors letter to show his mental problems and suicidal state.

 

A few days ago he received court proceedings for next month being charged with 4 counts of dishonestly claiming benefits worth totalling around £20,000. (because the house was in his name at the time and couldn't be removed from the disappearing ex girlfriend so therefore made him ineligible to claim HB). But granny dearest had legally paid for the house and was waiting for a solicitor to find the rouge girlfriend to put the house back in there name). As stated said person never saw the forms, he never filled them out, he didn't sign them, all done by dearest granny. Also remember he did not receive any of the money. As far as what the granny told him, was he was entitled to HB because they were charging him rent and he is to ill to work. He did not know he was doing anything wrong (mastermind granny i'm sure knew it was wrong).

 

So my questions are has he actually done anything wrong to be charged with this since he filled out none of the applications, he didn't sign his name, didn't read the claim forms and didn't have the money that was overpaid. That all went into granny's account which they have proof of, so why are they charging said friend? To me it sounds more like dear old granny should be to blame, as her husband has been charged with 8 counts for a similar offense (HB) and oddly enough she filled in all those claim forms as well:-x

 

NEED URGENT HELP PLEASE

Edited January 27, 2013 by confuseduser

[confuseduser]

Anyone please

[maroondevo52]

Hello and Welcome confuseduser,

 

It can be quiet on the site over the weekend, I'm sure you'll get some help and advice shortly.

 

Regards,

 

Scott.

[Fox Morris]

I'm certain others will have input, but it's the weekend and late, so you may have to wait a little while for assistance.

 

From memory, I think that grandparents are not considered a "close relative" and therefore are eligible to rent their property to their grandchild on housing benefit. It will still need to be on a commercial basis (i.e. at the market rate) and there will have to be a legally binding rental agreement in place too. Assuming both of these criteria are met, I would ask the bank to confirm when the mortgage was settled (or transferred in favour of) the grandparents and/or disclose whatever paperwork is available from the solicitor regarding the conveyance.

 

I wouldn't immediately try to lumber the blame on the grandparents, because if your friend claims they fraudulently filled out the paperwork, they may end up facing similar proceedings and be forced to sell the house anyway. If asked directly I would mention that they assisted with the claims as it was obviously a difficult period for your friend.

 

I would also strongly recommend your friend speaks with the solicitor who is chasing the rogue girlfriends as his/her version of events is more likely to hold weight with the DWP. If I have time tomorrow I will look for more on the "close relatives" legislation and see if I can dig up a similar case involving delayed title changes with the land registry.

 

It's not all doom and gloom for your friend, so tell him to chin up; help will soon be on the way.

[confuseduser]

Just to clear things up. House was bought on mortgage with said ex-girlfriend. When she left him she refused the mortgage payments which left said friend no choice but to let the house go and have no roof over his head. HIs grandparents stepped in at that point and paid the mortgage off so he could remain there and rent the property off them. So this is when the claims for HB began. The house should have gone in the grandparents name immediately, but said ex-girlfriend vanished and remained elusive for 3 to 4 years as she was holding out on a settlement to take her name off the deed. As per the solicitor said house belonged to grandparents since they paid the money. So because the ex was rogue for for 4 years and her and said friend names where still on the deeds to the DWP this = owning your own property and claiming rent which is a no no. But to him, the solicitors and his granny drilled it in that the house no longer belonged to him, it belonged to granny. The council are also claiming that if you previously own a property and it changes hands (new deeds) that you can't claim on said property for 4 years? I don't think any of them knew this. Worth noting that the house did finally get put in grannys name maybe 2 years ago after the ex accepted a payoff to remove her name from the deed. The reason granny is being blamed is because she did it all, was all her idea and now her husband faces 8 counts of dishonestly claiming benefits (significantly larger sum then said friend) . They were clamming rent for their house and they owned it:mad2:

 

Just feel disgusted that she has got them all in a right s*** mess. Said friend is suicidal over the whole thing, worried he's going to prison, named and shamed in local papers, and doesn't understand why he'd have to pay his part back as he never received any of the money?

Edited January 27, 2013 by confuseduser

[id6052]

Okay, you are not allowed to claim HB in respect of a property that you own, plus you are normally excluded from HB for 5 years after owning property (not 4 years)

 

so if your friend has claimed HB in respect of property he owned or previously owned (and did not declare it) he could be guilty of an offence

[id6052]

if your friend had no knowledge of HB claim, then it is more likely that his grandparents have committed the offence, though a lot will depend upon what information was stated on the claim form and who was involved/aware

[scotgal68]

If Granny is the mastermind behind the fraud, then your friend should tell the DWP - they can recall claim forms, check signatures etc. If your friend is mentally incapacitated then does he have a social worker/case worker? If so then ask for their help

One last thing - was your friend working or receiving benefits during the period of the fraud?

NB although said friend didn't receive any money from the fraud, he did benefit from it. Living rent free for 4 years? Did said friend not think this was questionable?

[abc123def]

As said above the friend has benefited from a claim for HB providing him with a roof over his head that he wasn't entitled to so that in itself is wrong. His defense though is that he didn't place a claim for HB and didn't sign the forms.

 

Did he know about the claim? If he knew nothing about it, that will help immensely. Otherwise they might say he is complicit in the fraud.

 

Either way, he will need to pay the money back as HB was paid out for him when he wasn't entitled. It's a shame that he didn't attend the IUC with a supporter, I have a friend with severe MH problems who now owes £34,000 in overpaid benefits due to incorrectly claiming when not entitled (though she thought she was) but due to her MH issues they have not taken her to court and are taking minimal payments that will take forever to pay back. A lifetime probably. Her MH status has protected her from the court process, but she engaged with them to get that. Your friend has refused to engage and discuss so they seem to have carried on with the court process when this might have been avoided. I would encourage your friend to meet with them with a supporter/advocate. His care co-ordinator at CTT might be a good choice or a MIND advocate.

[flumps1976]

Does you friemd usually deal with his own financial afairs or does he have a legally appointed representative (enduring power of attourney) if not does he need one?

If he has a legal representative the overpayment will be recovered from them as they failed to update records as required.

[Fox Morris]

I seem to be the only one taking the "don't throw the granny under the bus" approach. I honestly think that if you present the case as a fraud by the granny then your friend will definitely lose the roof over his head. The DWP will treat the situation as out and out fraud and will ignore any legitimate defence your friend and his granny could bring to retain the payments.

 

Read the following link from the DWP: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/technical-guidance/rr2-a-guide-to-housing-benefit/housing-benefit/

You'll see that it confirms the points I made earlier about "close relations" and the other requirements for a rental agreement on a commercial basis. It also states that whilst you cannot claim HB if you or your partner previously owned the dwelling which you now rent, there is an exception if you could not continue to live in the property without the transfer of ownership.

 

Assuming that your friend had defaulted on the mortgage repayments, this exception could apply and should be easy to prove using old paperwork. Even if your friend never received a default notice, he could still argue that the mortgage was in excess of his income at the time (both the payments and his income should be demonstrable) which led to him requiring his grandparents help. You can also go on to show the events in his personal life had an adverse affect on his ability to live in the property, namely the rogue girlfriend leaving (which can perhaps be supported by her removal from the electoral register or council tax reduction).

 

At the moment I think that your friend has a strong case to retain the HB payments as the biggest issue (the ownership of the house) can be addressed by the solicitor. If the solicitor can confirm the grandparents are the equitable owners of the house, and your friend and his former-partner have the land registry title in name only, then I think the charges can be defended. Again, I would recommend that your friend goes to the solicitor involved with the conveyance for legal advice.

[scotgal68]

"The reason granny is being blamed is because she did it all, was all her idea and now her husband faces 8 counts of dishonestly claiming benefits (significantly larger sum then said friend) . They were clamming rent for their house and they owned it"

 

Looks like dear old Granny has thrown herself under the bus already x

[confuseduser]

Said friend can prove he couldn't have stayed in the property with out transfer as he can get old mortgage default papers and there is proof from the solicitor that grandparents paid for and therefore owned the house and can prove that said ex-girlfriend could not be found to change the deeds for a long period of time. Granny can get her own paddle for that creek she's about to go up!!

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I'm still not clear whether your friend has taken specific legal advice about this summons. It sounds to me as if he will need someone versed in benefits to help him.

 

Sorry if I've missed something.

 

My best, HB

[confuseduser]

Said friend has spoken to a solicitor and she thinks it's quite laughable and shouldn't have any problems resolving it, but i'm just afraid for said friend as she wants it to go to crown court and I know (or suspect) that if it doesn't go in his favour that the punishment will be a lot harsher. He has already said that if he goes to prison or is outed in the local papers he will top himself, which is concerning since he has a young child (lives with mother).:sad:

[id6052]

can you clarify the dates/periods involved, for example:

 

1. when did the girlfriend leave
   
2. when did your friend default on mortgage
   
3. when did grandmother start paying mortgage
   
4. when was title transferred from friend to grandmother
   
5. when was the claim for hb made
   
6. if your friend received a lump sum from sale, when was this
   

Am I correct in understanding grandmother has also claimed hb for her own home despite owning it? if so, who did she claim owned it?

Edited January 27, 2013 by id6052

[estellyn]

When was the original decision regarding the overpayment - your friend needs to put in a civil appeal against the overpayment, if still in time.

[kk3852]

As far as I understand....your friends name is still on the property. Grandparents paid off the mortgage but the property was never registered in their name. They (?) sent of the HB forms saying that they were landlord.

 

a. it matters not that grandparents paid off his mortgage - the property is still registered in your friends name and he remains the legal owner. Paying off his mortgage for him does not make them the owner of the property. Proof that they paid the mortgage just shows that they got him out of debt.

b. Grandparents would not be able to make a claim for HB - the person who is the tenant has to make the claim and sign the form - unless you are saying that they forged his signature ?

c. By not attending the IUC, the above 'explanation' cannot be explored. The investigators only know that there is a house, registered in his name, for which he has claimed HB.

d. As his explanation has not been given, they have no option but to refer for prosecution. As abc etc said - if he had engaged the investigators then it may not have got to this. In a way he is lucky that they did not ask the police to arrest him as he had failed to attend for interview.

e. He needs to get legal advice. If this 'explanation' is put forward it is likely that the claim forms would be sent for forensic examination to see if it can be established who signed them. The LA/DWP will probably already have examples of handwriting from benefit claims. If it can be shown that friend and grandparents were all involved this could increase the charges to ones of conspiracy to defraud and this is a far greater offence than benefit fraud.

f. He needs to be aware that £20,000 is well over the threshold for applying for confiscation under the Proceeds of Crime Act and this is another reason why legal advice should be sought urgently.

g. If grandfather is also facing benefit fraud charges, these may increase if it is shown that they paid off the mortgage on his property.

 

This is far too complex to obtain advice on a forum.

[confuseduser]

1. ex girlfriend left 2005

2. defaulted on mortgage 6 months later

3. grandmother paid off couple months after that

4. transferred over to grandparents name 2009 (because ex disappeared which can be proved by the solicitor)

5. hb claim started after she paid mortgage but not sure how long after

6. no lump sum received

 

and yes granny dearest forged his signature. They can send off the forms as she fills them all in so that's what they would find out. He had no idea they were claiming for their own house which was in the other grandchild's name(this person didn't know why either and still has no clue what's going on) but now back in their own name. He is not capable of work and does not work due to mental health. He does have a social worker but no appointee. He has been sectioned during these time periods and is on strong anti-psychotic medications. He was involved with no conspiracy, as granny told him he was entitled and that's hat he believed as he thought and the solicitor drilled into him that the house did not belong to him. Hope this answers most of the questions.

[id6052]

during 2006 to 2009, it sounds like your friend would not have been entitled to hb as he was still the owner of the property

 

from 2009 onwards, he might have been entitled to some HB if he could have satisfied LA he had to relinquish ownership to remain in property (the LA may be able to apply underlying entitlement by reducing any gross overpayment, by any HB he might have been entitled to on his true circumstances)

 

however, on the basis that he is denying having made a claim for HB, and that his grandmother had made a fraudulent claim, there is a risk that underlying entitlement may not be applied, as there was no genuine claim

 

i would expect that the LA would seek recovery of overpayment from grandmother rather than your friend

 

my concerns about your friend's situation is: -

 

1. he does not appear to have put his side over to the LA, it might be that if he puts his side over, they might be less like;y to take action against him
   
2. he appears to have been aware of HB claim even though he did not complete form, so may be considered to be complicit
   

i agree with other posters that it would be in his best interests to get independent legal advice, i would suggest not using same solicitors that were involved in transfer of property or that are advising grandparents