DHL invoicing me for VAT + admin fee "paid on my behalf"...?

[Mike_hawk]

But what if someone sends you an item that is a gift and you didn't ask for it?

 

 

Reject delivery........ carrier returns to shipper, although in all likelihood the item would be destroyed rather than bear additional carriage and erts costs.

[Crazy Diamond]

Hi

 

Yes these are DHL FAQ but have you also checked the sellers website on customs/VAT charges and also asked them about these extra charges.

 

Like I said, I have no problem with paying the VAT, it's the admin charge I have a problem with.

[Crapstone]

Reject delivery........ carrier returns to shipper, although in all likelihood the item would be destroyed rather than bear additional carriage and erts costs.

 

That wasn't an option as box turns up and is signed for. That's the whole problem as you don't get a bill until weeks later! It's checked at customs so why don't they put a note in? All you get is the word of the carrier weeks later to say what has to be paid. Nothing seems to be officially from customs, it's just what FedEx say or DHL. The contract on the mail is between the sender and the company. The person who receives it has no contract with the mail company, only the sender.

 

I can see what you mean Crazy Diamond!

[Crapstone]

Reject delivery........ carrier returns to shipper, although in all likelihood the item would be destroyed rather than bear additional carriage and erts costs.

 

That would be great but not practical as I doubt the delivery person would hang around while it was examined and even then there is nothing on the box to say anything is to be paid. What part of days and weeks later can't people understand?

 

You receive a package ordered or not. Many days later you recieve an invoice for £xx from the carrier. What option did you ever have? They paid it and the contract is up to them to resolve and not to deliver before that. You can't demand money from someone that has never contacted you and didn't ask for your service.

[Mike_hawk]

I was responding to your question in post #47

 

Why not ask the carrier for a breakdown of charges, CPC code/s & tariffs used, seems a little tardy to be releasing goods to free circulation prior to collecting the import duty or VAT element.

 

Failing that, ask the shipper to confirm the information provided for the waybill and import entry and whether s/he will be prepared to bear costs if the carrier re-issues invoice.

 

Do you have a copy of the carriers delivery note?

[san_d]

Like I said, I have no problem with paying the VAT, it's the admin charge I have a problem with.

Well, don't order from overseas or if you do limit the value of your order (including shipping costs) to £15.

 

The HMRC website (I know this has been posted before) specifically states:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/post/paying-tax.htm#1

 

If duty and/or tax is payable, Royal Mail/Parcelforce will pay this to HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) on your behalf, and charge a handling fee to cover:

 

• operating the postal customs depot
  
• handling the package for customs examination
  
• opening, repacking and resealing the package if required
  
• paying the charges to HMRC on your behalf
  

Note that if there is no duty and/or tax to pay, you won't be charged a handling fee.

They'll write to you letting you know how much you need to pay, and the available payment methods. The customs charges and handling fee are itemised separately on the charge label.

If you have any queries about the handling fee you should raise these directly with Royal Mail/Parcelforce - these charges are entirely separate from any tax and/or duty charges, and the UK Border Agency (UKBA) and HMRC have no control on the charges it makes.

It's up to you to check the handling fees before you order the product. If the seller has misled you, you will have to take it with the seller, but I doubt you could enforce that if the seller is based in HK.

[Crazy Diamond]

Well, don't order from overseas

That's helpful. Not.

 

The HMRC website (I know this has been posted before) specifically states:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/post/paying-tax.htm#1

Based on which LAW? Them saying "you have to pay the carrier" doesn't amount to an Act of Parliament, last I checked.

It's up to you to check the handling fees before you order the product. If the seller has misled you, you will have to take it with the seller, but I doubt you could enforce that if the seller is based in HK.

Hang on, so when I ordered goods, I "should" have contacted carrier PRIOR to receiving my stuff (bearing in mind that I dont' have a contract with said carrier, the seller does!) and ask whether they will be paying the VAT for me and if yes, do they charge a fee? WHY should I have done such a thing?

 

You (and quite a few others) are missing a rather important point here: *I* don't have to do jack. DHL are the ones who are trying to get me to cough up for monies: they don't have a contract with me, I didn't ask them to pay things for me, if I refuse to pay, THEY're the ones who will have to pursue me. How exactly are they going to do that? With no contract? Let's face it, they don't have a leg to stand on, and I am surprised to see so many people on this site seeming completely unaware how the law works and still feeling qualified to comment on the topic.

 

Crapstone, good luck with yours, I'll let you know if anything happens further in my dispute, please do likewise for yours? Thanks.

[stu007]

Hi Crazy Diamond

 

You really need to read DHL Terms & Conditions and the FAQ that I posted but either way I think you will still be unhappy with whatever response you get and advice given.

[Crapstone]

An example I gave was what if a parcel was delivered to a wrong address? Do they get the bill for something they didn't want and have to pay? I very much doubt their chances in court!

 

Stuff their terms and conditions as this is UK contract law and you can't be made to pay for something you didn't want or were not informed of and that includes further charges after the fact. Can anyone show me a person that has been taken to court and DHL or FedEx have won? So how do you factor in unsolicited goods?

 

Their contract is with the person that arranged the shipping otherwise I'd send Obama an empty Oxo cube box and list it as a few million in value or get my sister to send one to Cameron. Would they pay the charges on the listed value?

 

They can take me to court and like Crazy Diamond I thought this site was about standing up for your rights and not being a sheep.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Crapstone

[Crapstone]

the EU, import taxes and/or duty are payable by the receiver before delivery once the goods have arrived in the UK. For any type of purchased goods posted to the UK from outside

 

 

Does that not say BEFORE delivery or is it my imagination on the Royal Mail site! So what is the actual law? A contract requires agreement and there is none in this case or CD's. Seller A agrees to ship and B recieves the goods via C. If B isn't informed and plays no part then they can't be held responsible or to be contractually involved by C or A. Only a duty of care.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Crapstone

[Synergist]

the EU, import taxes and/or duty are payable by the receiver before delivery once the goods have arrived in the UK. For any type of purchased goods posted to the UK from outside

 

 

Does that not say BEFORE delivery or is it my imagination on the Royal Mail site! So what is the actual law? A contract requires agreement and there is none in this case or CD's. Seller A agrees to ship and B recieves the goods via C. If B isn't informed and plays no part then they can't be held responsible or to be contractually involved by C or A. Only a duty of care.

 

The law changed last year apparently which now allows RMG (or I believe any other mail handling agent, i.e. courier) to process post and withhold until admin fees and customs charges are paid in full. In reality couriers can't hold on to the volume of customs-cleared items so they ship them out and bill in arrears; it makes too much money for Royal Mail so they dedicate a bit of SO space to this enterprise.

 

Martin at concretebadger.net - apologies, you'll have to load his site manually as I've not got high enough postcount -- look for the Parcelforce articles) has posted a few articles tracking his saga of receiving post from overseas subject to these fees and it makes for highly interesting reading if you're new to import duty and VAT and the admin charges levied by couriers and RMG.

 

Be grateful you were only stung for £5 and not £8, £10 or even £12 (or more!) as some couriers - Parcelforce et al - impose without recourse.

 

I've also tried importing goods into the UK and requesting them to be marked as "goods to be cleared by importer" but it's made no difference. When I went to pick up a parcel once which had been flagged by UKBA and processed by Royal Mail, the man working behind the sorting office counter explained that the Revenue are cracking down on US and Canadian imports more than others (e.g. Hong Kong, Taiwan etc) -- although to an extent it's still pot luck whether your parcel's taken to one side or allowed straight through.

 

Personally I wouldn't mind paying £5 admin fee given I think I have a fairly good understanding of what's required by the mail handlers. £5 is the pain threshold for admin charges - I've probably made a decent enough saving on buying the item from the States that £5 and a few bob for the actual import VAT is neither here nor there. It's the occasions when I've ordered something, and Royal Mail's admin fee is as much as the value of the item itself, that's really ****ed me off!

[Crazy Diamond]

The law changed last year apparently which now allows RMG (or I believe any other mail handling agent, i.e. courier) to process post and withhold until admin fees and customs charges are paid in full.

That could be interesting, do you have a link to "the law" or a name that can be searched, please? and if this is true, does it mean that every single one that was charged before WAS in fact unlawful?

 

Be grateful you were only stung for £5 and not £8, £10 or even £12 (or more!) as some couriers - Parcelforce et al - impose without recourse.

I am never grateful for money that gets demanded off me when I haven't agreed to it. Seems to me, the more I read about it, the more it comes across as a massive racket as it looks as if the majority of people just pay up without questioning! Seeing the volume of overseas business going on, this must make them an absolute fortune, which seems completely unrelated to the costs they actually incur.

 

Personally I wouldn't mind paying £5 admin fee given I think I have a fairly good understanding of what's required by the mail handlers. £5 is the pain threshold for admin charges - I've probably made a decent enough saving on buying the item from the States that £5 and a few bob for the actual import VAT is neither here nor there. It's the occasions when I've ordered something, and Royal Mail's admin fee is as much as the value of the item itself, that's really ****ed me off!

That comment about "pain threshold" is exactly what's making me suspicious. It's small enough that most people will pay without questioning, but big enough that if it's levied on enough parcels it will be a nice money-making scheme. You see, I was googling a fair bit before posting here, and I noticed that the charge used to be £10. Now I don't know about you, but I have never seen a company voluntarily lowering their prices for no good reason, and that's what got me thinking in the first place.

 

Anyway, if you could point me in the direction of that law you mention, I'd be grateful.

[stu007]

Hi

 

Hope this help for Martin at concretebadger.net posted inpost #61: http://www.concretebadger.net/?s=parcelforce

[Crazy Diamond]

Hi

 

Hope this help for Martin at concretebadger.net posted inpost #61: http://www.concretebadger.net/?s=parcelforce

 

Is that MSE by any chance?

[Synergist]

Stu beat me to it. :> No, he's not Martin Lewis. With regards to the £5 "pain threshold" point -- yeah, I find it's entirely dependent upon what the courier company chooses to charge. Some are scumbags and charge over a tenner which is just unforgiveable, that's purely punitive. £5 is just about justifiable IMO but it's still a bit frustrating to pay it.

 

With regards to the law in question - see the 2000 Postal Services Act, as amended 2011. (I've not read the entire Act nor have I compared it to the original 2000 enacted version, but if you contact Martin on Twitter @concretebadger he'll likely be able to point you in the right direction. Full text is available at legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/5/contents)

[Crapstone]

Crazy Diamond I've contacted a legal expert and this is what they said.

 

Based on the information you have provided the key points in response to your enquiry are as follows:

With international parcels they might be subject to being investigated by Customs and the parcel is investigated then Customs Duty and/or Import Tax might be applied to the parcel and must be paid before delivery and if the Customs Duty and/or Import Tax is not paid then the parcel will be returned to the sender.

 

So in truth they can't apply the charge AFTER they have delivered the item.

[Synergist]

Crazy Diamond I've contacted a legal expert and this is what they said.

 

 

 

Based on the information you have provided the key points in response to your enquiry are as follows:

With international parcels they might be subject to being investigated by Customs and the parcel is investigated then Customs Duty and/or Import Tax might be applied to the parcel and must be paid before delivery and if the Customs Duty and/or Import Tax is not paid then the parcel will be returned to the sender.

 

So in truth they can't apply the charge AFTER they have delivered the item.

 

The interesting thing is the legal concensus that it's unenforceable and uncollectable - couriers effectively loan you the money to cover UKBA charges then invoice you in arrears, plus their admin fee - but the system is quite mature and the wheeze is universally practiced by all mail handlers in the UK. From reading this UKBF thread, there's some right horror stories as to what people have had to do to obtain their items from bonded warehouses at point of entry when they decline their mail handler (read: courier) permission to process the customs work on their behalf... ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-245684.html

 

At least the silver lining in all this is that your courier delivered the package first and followed with a (debatably enforceable) invoice, instead of sitting on it (I sometimes wonder if literally, too) like Royal Mail does. It's infuriating having your items held hostage.

[Crazy Diamond]

Thanks, Crapstone, very interesting.

[Crapstone]

The interesting thing is the legal concensus that it's unenforceable and uncollectable - couriers effectively loan you the money to cover UKBA charges then invoice you in arrears, plus their admin fee - but the system is quite mature and the wheeze is universally practiced by all mail handlers in the UK. From reading this UKBF thread, there's some right horror stories as to what people have had to do to obtain their items from bonded warehouses at point of entry when they decline their mail handler (read: courier) permission to process the customs work on their behalf... ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-245684.html

 

At least the silver lining in all this is that your courier delivered the package first and followed with a (debatably enforceable) invoice, instead of sitting on it (I sometimes wonder if literally, too) like Royal Mail does. It's infuriating having your items held hostage.

 

True but the legal system is built on contract law and you can't make a contract if you have no knowledge of it or play any part. If it were wongly addressed and left with a neighbour then I don't think they'd be too happy at being chased by debt collectors and then have to sue. I can't see how they can 'loan' money on behalf of a person that didn't even want the parcel in the first place.

 

On the other hand I can see how frustrating it would be to not receive something and being made to pay charges too but at least it gives you chance to refuse instead of being held over a barrel.

[Jessica87]

I know your question relates specifically to the legality of this charge but I felt for others reading it may be worth remembering that DHL also made a customs declaration to clear your goods into the UK. You can pay anything up to £30 to get a company to make one on your behalf.

[Clara86n]

I didn't say they had levied the VAT, I said they had levied an admin fee.

 

Yes, I know what they do, I understand the mechanism, that's not answering my question though, is it...?

Whether it's £5 or £500 is also besides the point, and I don't think it's up to them to "do me a favour" and then charge me £5 for it. That's also not what I am asking.

 

The only question that needs answering is: do they have the legal right to invoice me for a "service" I have not asked them to provide, I have not agreed terms and haven't got a contract?

 

I am now living in Angola. I ordered some goods from Europe and was charged 166usd for duties and Dhl charged me 85.50$ usd for administrative fees. Here I have the option to clear custom myself which they never provided plus they didn't announce these fees. Looking at their website it does mention a small administrative fee. They call that small? Plus they refused to tell me how it's calculated or show a table/detailed invoice regarding these fees.

[Conniff]

Are you fighting the admin fee or have you paid it ?

[Crapstone]

I haven't paid it or the duty and have heard nothing from them since. So much for the threatened court action! If they deliver the goods then they should make it clear at that point what you have to pay and not weeks later. It's a [problem]....without the offer of declaring it yourself when you don't know that it's being delivered in the first place. You can't just drop a package off and then bill someone weeks later. I'll order a conservatory for my neighbour when they are out and tell the builder just to post the bill through their door when they have finished regardless of the cost. They won't mind...

[jfre]

been reading this and wondered what the out come of it all has been

i have had a couple of personal items from abroad and always get a email for duty to be paid and i pay either online or on delivery

 

i have just received an invoice from dhl for something i i had end of april and invoice was dated 09/05/14 for vat7.03 + admin fee of £10.00,received the invoice 15/05/2014.

no emails or note with item

the thing is i had a delivery 13/05/2014 which had its import vat invoice with driver -dated 09/05/2014 now the vat was £8.51 but the admin fee is now £7.49.

do they pluck this figure out of the air ?

 

both are for personal items and i have no problem being charged the vat and a small admin fee to speed things up if made aware of it and it is a set reasonable fee .

 

i have phoned dhl and was told the admin fee was increase begin of may,i pointed out that both are dated the same date -they then said because i had one delivered to my business address it probably had a higher admin fee ,but they could not explain why when i said that surly its the same work involved in processing through customs and delivery

 

only differences is one has been billed 2 weeks after i have received the goods

should i just send payment for the VAT?

[ericsbrother]

The admin fee for Royalmail is higher than this so despite the small VAT bill you cant get out of their charges as they would be considered reasonable. You could try arguing that they should both be at the lower rate on this occasion and ask them to investigate their charges for furure reference.