Rundle Bailiffs excessive on Council tax. Someone please help

[woofy85]

Hi,

I don't know if anyone can help me.

 

My mother received two bailiff bills for two liability orders,

one dated Jan 20 2006 ( £488) and

Apr 7 2009 (£27.50) ( 2009 was like 4 years after she lived there).

 

These were council tax bills, from a property my mother had lived in from June till the end of august.

My mother informed she was moving out 3 months after moving in due to rats.

 

Anyway 6 -7 passed.

 

This July received these letters from the bailiff.

It took them all this time to make her aware of these bills.

 

One of the liability order was £488

and the other £27.50.

 

My mother been trying to proved she was living there by providing council tax bills from the new property she was living in.

I made a appeal for her and plan to take it to the Valuation Tribunal.

 

 

this December after fighting to proved she was liable,

the bailiff kept coming around even tho my mother sent the bills back saying she would pay instalments

( she is a pensioner widower)

 

I have been the one doing the fighting on her behalf cause my mother isn't as young as she used to be and doesn't understand this stuff.

 

Around 2 week ago letters came saying if she doesn't pay the bill in 7 days the police would be called and she would be arrested.

 

A letter assigning a bailiff to her was sent too ( also telling her she would be arrested).

 

My brother rang up the bailiff and the bailiff tells him the bill had been reduced ( both liability orders) from £515.50 down to £208,

 

my brother asked if it could be paid in instalments

but the bailiff refused and said it has to be paid immediately or my mother would be arrested and if she paid straight way it would be the end of this.

 

So my mother paid through the bank the next day.

 

Still haven't received a receipt!

 

 

This week a letter arrived demanding that my mother pay the JAN 2006 liability order now increased to £570.

 

It turns out the bailiff lied over the phone about the 2 liability order being reduce

and really had increased the Apr 2009 liability order from £27.50 to £208!!!

 

Tricking us into paying 1 of the orders with excessive charges.

 

 

Is allowed?

 

I tried reading some of the threads on here but it is confusing on what to do?

 

One other website says that this is fraud and I should make appeal.

 

My mother is old and can't afford these excessive charges.

 

She has tried to have the original bill paid in instalments, but they just ignore her, sending larger and larger bills.

 

Please can someone give me advice,

 

seriously begging as I don't know what to do and she has another growing bill

[zydeco]

"Around 2 week ago letters came saying if she doesn't pay the bill in 7 days the police would be called and she would be arrested"

 

"My brother rang up the bailiff and the bailiff tells him the bill had been reduced ( both liability orders) from £515.50 down to £208"

 

"bailiff refused and said it has to be paid immediately or my mother would be arrested"

 

Can anybody else see what's wrong with this??

[dx100uk]

if you can pay you should be paying the council

direct via your internet banking site

never ever pay a bailiff.

.

Here is something to be getting on with. First of all establish from the Council how much was owing etc You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

.

Next you need to send off for a breakdown of the charges the Bailiff applied. Here's an example, use and adapt at will and best sent initially by email backed up by a copy in the post.

.

"From:

My Name

My Address

.

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

.

Ref: Account No: 123456

.

Dear Sir

.

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

.

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

.

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

.

I require this information within 14 days.

.

Yours faithfully

.

Ripped off customer"

.

When you have the answers to the above go to the Bailiff Forum http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=168 and we'll see if we can help to claim back any unlawful or overcharged fees.

.

 

and you cannot get arrested over CTAX..

 

dx

[ploddertom]

I'm interested in particular in the letters that say she will be arrested, if they do in my opinion these could be gold dust. You would then have concrete proof the Bailiff is misrepresenting his powers. Is it possible you can scan & upload these - preferably using PDF files and remembering to remove all personal identifiers.

[woofy85]

I am more worried about the other bill she hasn't paid for,

the liability order for original £488 but now at is like around £570 and increasing.

 

What do we do?

 

Do we pay it?

 

And appeal for refund for excessive charges?

 

My mother rang them up last week to have them start an instalment (again) as she did twice like 3 months ago,

but we never get anything in the post even tho they say they are going to send.

 

It's like they want to delay it and keep the charges growing.

 

I don't live with my mother so most of the time, it's talking over the phone.

And by the sounds of it, I don't think it will be gold dust, after she read it too me.

It was only over the phone he said she would be arrested and demanded a one off payment and told he it can't be paid instalments

(bailiff, not the company who said it can be) but that can't be proved.

I asked her to read it over the phone word for word.

 

"Take formal notice

 

Bankruptcy charging order or Committal to prison

 

Council tax due to the London borough of *****

 

I am writing to inform you if I do not hear from you in 7 days. I will have to consider taking further instructions from our client with regards to one of possible actions:

 

Apply to the court to have you committed to prison;

 

If you are a home owner, apply to the court for a charging order to be registered against your property and ask the court to auction your home

 

commerce court proceeding to have you declared bankrupt, and have your asserts, including your home handed to the official receiver.

 

Any of the actions will add, substantial costs to your bill"

 

 

Next letter reads,

 

"Attendance notice

 

the clearance of goods

 

total amount due £208 ( hand written)

 

I called today with transportation to remove your goods.

I shall be back within the next 48 hours with the police in attendance if necessary, to complete my task.

This action will be taken without further notice

 

I may seize and remove sufficient goods and chattels as are necessary to clear the debt at public auction, this may include vehicles.

The cost of the removal contractors and auctioneers will be deducted from the proceeds of the sales of your good"

[dx100uk]

urm... you cannot be imprisoned for CTAX arrears

that soundsmore like a DCA!!

 

anyhow

 

she needs to URCENTLY action post 3

 

dx

[TB Law]

See reg. 47: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/613/part/VI/made

[woofy85]

I will get my mother to call up the council and see if they will take a payment direct...

 

. Can anyone tell me how to pay the original £488 without them adding the excessive charges or is that legal it's all I want to know.

 

I read some of that reg 47 and it seems everything they are doing is legal.

 

Anyone advice on paying it back?

[dx100uk]

this is what needs to be done ASAP:

 

if you can pay you should be paying the council

direct via your internet banking site

never ever pay a bailiff.

.

Here is something to be getting on with. First of all establish from the Council how much was owing etc You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

.

Next you need to send off for a breakdown of the charges the Bailiff applied. Here's an example, use and adapt at will and best sent initially by email backed up by a copy in the post.

.

"From:

My Name

My Address

.

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

.

Ref: Account No: 123456

.

Dear Sir

.

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

.

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

.

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

.

I require this information within 14 days.

.

Yours faithfully

.

Ripped off customer"

.

When you have the answers to the above go to the Bailiff Forum http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=168 and we'll see if we can help to claim back any unlawful or overcharged fees.

.

 

dont phone the council - waste of time

unless they have an automated payment line [ most do]

 

anyone can pay using the line or your internet banking site..

 

IMHO i would NOT be paying anything

 

till you get the list of LO's from the council as above

 

dx

[woofy85]

Oh well my brother who made my mother pay the £208 that was increased from £27 just made her pay the other bill that was originally £488 and now is £575. I think it was done through the council phone line. So in total that is now £783. My brother has good as blocked me from trying to help her.

 

 

I have sent the email to the council asking them for that information, on how much was owing e.t.c

 

 

The break down of charges hasn't been done will be

[brassnecked]

All is not lost if you can get your mother to ask for a breakdown of the fees using the Acme letter, then they can be unpicked by Caggers for validity, and refund demanded for any dodgy fees. Also as per ploddertom, have you anything in writing from the bailiff stating she will be arrested?

[woofy85]

Sorry for going quiet,

I could only make it to my mother places this weekend to scan the letter showing break down of charges ( got it today, quick ).

 

If charges were a pound or two above was rounding them up.

 

Funny on the £27.50 order,

he visited 3 times but never with a van,

my mother sits by her window during the day ( something old people do I guess, bless her)

so she see's what's going on.

Even tho, he came with a van apparently to empty the house, for £27.50?

 

ok, it has blocked me from posting the pdf until i have 5 more posts!

[dx100uk]

you dont need any postcount to attach one:

 

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets - as a picture[jpg] file

don't forget you can use a mobile phone or a digital camera too!!

'

BUT......

ENSURE: remove all pers info inc. barcodes etc using paint program

but leave all figures and dates. {DO NOT USE A BIRO OR PEN]

convert existing PC files to PDF [office has an installable print to PDF option]

..

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites [http://docupub.com/pdfconvert/]

it would be better to upload a multipage pdf if

you have many images too rather than many single pdfs

.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

or use word and save as pdf

try and logically name your file so people know what it is.

i'e Default notice dd-mm-yyyy

.

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

.

dx

[woofy85]

Thanks for advice x PDF of charges in attachment. (EDITED TO REMOVED REFERENCE NUMBER)

Edited December 16, 2012 by woofy85

[dx100uk]

opps you've left the bailiff ref number on it

 

dx

[ploddertom]

According to the breakdown they have given they visited for both debts at the same time. Therefore they should have treated them as one and should only be charging one set of visit fees, refund of £42-50 due.

 

Turning to their 3rd visit they are claiming a :Levy fee on both accounts, did they gain access to the home or levy on goods outside? Did they leave a Notice of Seizure & if so what goods are listed on it? Have they listed the same goods on both levies? They are also claiming an Attendance/Van Fee at the same time - not allowed so another £110 due as a refund.

[brassnecked]

Looking at the original post, OP's mother is a pensioner, does she live alone? Two thoughts spring to mind if she does. has she applied for and been given the Single Person discount? If not demand council applies it and modifies the accounts accordingly, to reflect the lower sum now due.

 

Secondly, she is a pensioner, therefore may well be vulnerable according to the National Standards to which the council and bailiffs should be signed up to, which says that bailiff action is inappropriate in a vulnerable situation.

 

In any event Bumbles & co appear to have added spurious fees from the Brothers Grimm Handbook, so these as stated by ploddertom should be refunded. As an aside Im sure Rundle & co would like to appear in the press (NOT) as being oppressive and overcharging pensioners.

Vulnerable situations

 

 Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise that

they each have a role in ensuring that the vulnerable and socially

excluded are protected and that the recovery process includes

procedures agreed between the agent/agency and creditor about

how such situations should be dealt with. The appropriate use of

discretion is essential in every case and no amount of guidance

could cover every situation, therefore the agent has a duty to

contact the creditor and report the circumstances in situations

where there is evidence of a potential cause for concern. If

necessary, the enforcement agent will advise the creditor if further

action is appropriate. The exercise of appropriate discretion is

needed, not only to protect the debtor, but also the enforcement

agent who should avoid taking action which could lead to

accusations of inappropriate behaviour.

 

 Enforcement agents must withdraw from domestic premises if the

only person present is, or appears to be, under the age of 18; they

can ask when the debtor will be home - if appropriate.

 

 Enforcement agents must withdraw without making enquiries if the

only persons present are children who appear to be under the age

of 12.

 

 Wherever possible, enforcement agents should have

arrangements in place for rapidly accessing translation services

when these are needed, and provide on request information in

large print or in Braille for debtors with impaired sight.

 Those who might be potentially vulnerable include:

 the elderly;

 people with a disability;

 the seriously ill;

 the recently bereaved;

 single parent families;

 pregnant women;

 unemployed people; and,

 those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or

reading English.

 

Might be worth informing the council and Bumbles, that your mother may well be vulnerable and they should withdraw the account from the bailiff, and remove/refund the dodgy fees, also has she a car? if not and the re is a levy on a car, well Blaby Council and the LGO is what to clobber them with

[woofy85]

According to the breakdown they have given they visited for both debts at the same time. Therefore they should have treated them as one and should only be charging one set of visit fees, refund of £42-50 due.

 

Turning to their 3rd visit they are claiming a :Levy fee on both accounts, did they gain access to the home or levy on goods outside? Did they leave a Notice of Seizure & if so what goods are listed on it? Have they listed the same goods on both levies? They are also claiming an Attendance/Van Fee at the same time - not allowed so another £110 due as a refund.

 

 

 

First of all, thanks guys. My mother is in her early 60's but been sick for like 2 years but I don't think they would call her vulnerable. So i won't use that as defense. At the time she was living alone, and I don't know if it was appiled ( single person discount) but I don't think, I tried and tried for the council to answer a list of questions but the kept referring me to the Bailiffs. So I made an appeal last week if they don't replie I am going to report them to the valuations tribunal.

 

 

And the bailiff never came inside the flat or moved any goods. It a building of flats then u need a fob to get in, so all he did was buzz. My mother doesn't drive

Edited December 16, 2012 by woofy85

[brassnecked]

"My mother is in her early 60's but been sick for like 2 years but I don't think they would call her vulnerable"

 

Under the National Standards, as she has been ill for 2 years, the chances are she may be. As to levy even though she hasn't a car and they can't get in as you have been informed on CAG, bailiffs often levy a random motor to ground more fees, so looking at her case there is a strong likelihood that this is what they have done and hope the levy and associated fees will go unchallenged.

 

@ ploddertom "According to the Breakdown they have given they visited for both debts at the same time. Therefore they should have treated them as one and should only be charging one set of visit fees, refund of £42-50 due.

 

Turning to their 3rd visit they are claiming a :levy fee on both accounts, did they gain access to the home or levy on goods outside? Did they leave a Notice of seizure & if so what goods are listed on it? Have they listed the same goods on both levies? They are also claiming an Attendance/Van Fee at the same time - not allowed so another £110 due as a refund."

 

You should claim the refund as suggested above, I feel they have made a dodgy levy.

[woofy85]

Okay, thanks, so I should claim for that double charging.... About the levy is there any legislation I can use to back me up.

 

 

I take it. I can claim a refund on a basis, they didn't enter the home / they didn't levy good outside ( car). And on the charges since they were both on the same date, shouldn't be charged twice. What if they say they have someone visit for the two different accounts, at different times on same day? Is there is any legislation I can quote or get a template letter, that would be great.

 

 

Once I have emailed the bailiffs a letter for a refund. Who can I appeal too if they refuse? Can I report them to anyone for lying/ committing fraud?

[lookinforinfo]

What stage is your appeal at regarding the short length of your Mother's stay at the property where the L/Os were raised. Did she pay any C/T when she was there?

In any event £515.50 for three months seems excessive.

It also seems strange that it has taken so long for the bailiffs to begin chasing her..............

[ploddertom]

The chances are they will claim a levy on your mum's Rolls Royce she parks outside, and when she tell s them it ain't a Roller but a lookalike Mini Metro they will ask her to prove she doesn't own it. There is a recent LGO Focus Report about Bailiffs doing such things, which effectively says they should check before making the levy.

 

To complain simply write and advise that as no Notice of Seizure was left then you consider there was no levy and the all associated must be removed.

[woofy85]

Hi guys,

 

Me again. Okay, been copy and pasting!! Below is a letter, I want to send for refund charges. I would just like you to tell me if the information, I have put in the letter is correct to get a refund back. This letter deals with two liability orders, which you can see on the attachments. Once again, truly grateful for you help.

 

 

Dear Sirs,

 

 

I am writing concerning the above the recently paid Council Tax liability orders and your recent response to my request for a break down of fee's on both

 

liability orders.

 

 

 

Visiting fees ( Liability orders: ****** / *******)

 

 

From your records, you will see that one of your bailiff’s visited October 1st, 2nd, on both days, the bailiff visit once early in the morning shown on the liability orders fee breakdown ( bailiff reference 9*****, 9***** ), he visited for both debts at the same time. Therefore, he should have treated them as one and should only be charging one set of visit fees, refund of £42.50 due.

 

 

Levy Fee / Van and attendance fee

 

 

(Liability order : ******** )

 

From your records, you will see that one of your bailiff claims to have visited on November the 8th. He did not enter the property. There was no notice of seize left, he had no levy on goods and Mrs ***** is a pensioner, who doesn't own a car and has no driving license, so no levy can be claimed on this. Therefore, he can not charge for a van and attendance refund of £124.50 is due.

 

 

Levy fee

 

 

(Liability order : ******** )

 

 

From your records, you will see that one of your bailiff claims to have visited on November the 8th. He did not enter the property. No notice of seize was left, he had no levy on goods. A refund of £41.00 is due

 

 

For the following reason, I believe that you have overcharged me by £208. If you think that my calculation is incorrect, please provide details, failing which, I require a refund of these fees by close of business on (enter date 7 days from this letter).

 

Due to the seriousness of this matter, unless I receive from you either: an adequate explanation why you believe that my calculation is incorrect, or a refund of the fees as stated above, I intend to issue proceedings against your company for recovery of my fees.

 

I will be providing a copy of this letter, together with your response to the Local Authority. (ensure that your letter is sent by Registered post…and keep a copy.)

 

Yours Faithfully.

 

 

What stage is your appeal at regarding the short length of your Mother's stay at the property where the L/Os were raised. Did she pay any C/T when she was there?

In any event £515.50 for three months seems excessive.

It also seems strange that it has taken so long for the bailiffs to begin chasing her..............

 

 

At the time she just came back into London, was on Jsa and thought the council were paying the CT, After three months she moved out to another borough were she had got a Job. Even tho she informed the owner that she was moving out a month before (place was full of mice) I think the council held her liable for the other 3 months of the 6 month contract, even though she was paying council tax at new property. But still puzzled to why the is a liability order in 2009 for same property nearly 4 years after.

 

And yes I agree, it is very odd after all these years they send her these bills. I tried to ask them about it,and they just referred me to a bailiff. The appeal just started, that's if they will even reply, cause none of my 5 emails + letter had a response.

Edited December 18, 2012 by woofy85

[freakyleaky]

I have merged your threads as they are both about the same issue.

I see you have already posted the template letter in this thread though so I will remove one of the duplicate posts.

[lookinforinfo]

You do need to see a copy of the L/O they are pursuing your Mother for. They may still may be chasing her using her old address on the warrant which is a nono. Also there should be

an expiry date too.