Pre-bailiff letter received for very old council tax **RESOLVED**

[nonymouse]

Hi there

 

I have today received a Council Tax Pre-Bailiff Notice from Sandwell MBC, stating that I owe a sum of council tax, and that a liability order was issued against me on 15th May 2012. I have to pay this sum within 14 days or the bailiffs will be coming to my current address.

 

The address to which the Council Tax pertains is a flat I rented for a few months back in 2001/2002, in a completely different part of the country to where I live now. I lived alone, and was unemployed for some of the time I lived there so would have been entitled to benefits. I have absolutely no paperwork pertaining to this house, least of all council tax bills, as they got chucked many years ago. I certainly wasn't aware of any outstanding issues. The letter gives no clue as to what proportion of this is council tax, and what proportion is fees etc. It also gives no clue as to why it has taken 10 years to raise a liability order and why I have had no previous correspondence to this, despite living at my current address for over 6 years.

 

It's not a huge sum of money, and I could probably manage to pay it off over a few months. However I'm loath to pay a sum that is so very old, with no clear idea of whether I actually owe it.

 

Any advice?

[cerberusalert]

Council Tax is subject to its own limitation period under reg 34(3) Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regs 1992. The local authority may not apply for a liability order after 'the period of six years beginning with the day it becomes due'.

 

The 6 years runs from when the demand for payment is served on the taxpayer (Regentford v Thanet District Council [2004] EWCH 246). Under reg19 the local authority should serve a demand on a liable person 'on or as soon as practicable after the day the billing authority first sets the amount of council tax for the relevant year'.

[nonymouse]

Hmm... interesting. Thanks for that - I had no idea. So what should I do? I'm certain that a council call centre person won't be the right person to speak to about this. I could SAR the council, but the Bailiffs will be here by the time I get anything back from that.

 

I suppose a strongly worded letter to Sandwell council stating the limitation above (sent tomorrow by Special Delivery to arrive Monday) should be my next step?

[cerberusalert]

I've moved your thread into the bailiffs forum for better advice.

[unclebulgaria67]

So has the liability order been legally obtained or not ?

 

How can the OP go about getting the LO removed ?

 

Can they ask the magistrates court to rescind the LO as it not issued within the accepted time period ?

[unclebulgaria67]

This link may help you.

 

http://www.sarahrobsonbarrister.co.uk/Liability-Orders.html

[nonymouse]

Many thanks for that link unclebulgaria. I don't know which court made the order as the letter doesn't say, but it'll be one of two in that area of the country so I can easily find out tomorrow and submit a letter to have it set aside.

[unclebulgaria67]

You may have difficulty with this, as I read somewhere that the magistrate can only consider such an application within 21 days, but it sounds like you did not know about it. The council had an obligation to tell you that they were going to seek a liability order and which court was going to hear the application.

 

Find out which magistrates court the council dealt with and then speak to the chief clerk at the magistrates court, to advise them of the issue.

[nonymouse]

*nods* this letter is the first I've heard of it. Presumably if the council had my address to send me this letter they should have contacted me prior to going to court. It's all very peculiar that I've had nothing for years and years and now this. I'll see where I get to and then contact the CAB if I hit a wall of resistance. Thanks.

[brassnecked]

So has the liability order been legally obtained or not ?

 

How can the OP go about getting the LO removed ?

 

Can they ask the magistrates court to rescind the LO as it not issued within the accepted time period ?

I think if you refer to outlawla's ongoing saga with NELC and the Regulations, athat a LO is virtually automatic, and ONLY THE COUNCIL that obtained it can get it quoshed, but others will know more. and the link provided would indicate it can be appealed. Time for a perusal of the Council Tax regulations I think, to seek clarification.

[outlawla]

I think if you refer to outlawla's ongoing saga with NELC and the Regulations, athat a LO is virtually automatic, and ONLY THE COUNCIL that obtained it can get it quoshed, but others will know more. and the link provided would indicate it can be appealed. Time for a perusal of the Council Tax regulations I think, to seek clarification.

 

 

Thats right as far as I'm aware brassnecked. The council can apply to the Magistrates' court under Regulation 5(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 2004.

 

See also The Local Government Finance Act 1992 and Part 12A, Schedule 4 of the Act.

 

Edited June 21, 2012 by outlawla

[ploddertom]

There's something not quite right here. If the LO is for an address you used to live at then that would be down to the "occupying" Council to contact you. Also if this is from 2001/2002 then the Liability Order must have been obtained within the 6 year period otherwise you can tell them to on their bike.

[unclebulgaria67]

Can anyone access this case. R on the Application of Newham Council v Stratford Magistrates' Court [2008] EWHC 125 (Admin), [2008] RA 108, 173 JP 30, [2008] All ER (D) 17 (Jan) [2008].

 

I have tried to, but you appear to have to subscribe to a legal site to see the case details.

 

My reading of the rules regarding liability orders is that they are not automatic or should not be. They should issue a final notice and the debtor should be allowed the chance to ask the magistrate to refuse the order on certain ground. When the LO is granted, they can be appealed against to the magistrate, I believe within 21 days and thereafter at the High Court.

[unclebulgaria67]

The Havant council site is pretty clear about the process of getting a LO.

 

http://www.havant.gov.uk/havant-3529

[unclebulgaria67]

This is also worth reading.

 

Liability orders can only be obtained (per SI 1058 of 1989) following: “a fairly elaborate procedure [in which] the defendant has been given an opportunity to explain why he has not paid. The court may make the order only if it is satisfied that the sum has become payable, and that it has not been paid. If the defendant thinks that the order has been wrongly made, he is in principle entitled to challenge it either by judicial review or by an appeal by case stated.” [33]

 

 

http://www.hendersonchambers.co.uk/resources/articles/articles/dias-v-havering

[unclebulgaria67]

People may have seen this. Plymouth council admitted that LO did not exist as such.

 

http://www.nocounciltax.com/councils/finally-council-admits-council-tax-liability-orders-exist/

 

Does not sound like councils are following a proper legal process ?

[brassnecked]

People may have seen this. Plymouth council admitted that LO did not exist as such.

 

http://www.nocounciltax.com/councils/finally-council-admits-council-tax-liability-orders-exist/

 

Does not sound like councils are following a proper legal process ?

 

The procedure is kangaroo in nature imho, as they may or may not send out the required notice, but after that it is automatic with no check and bal;ance as illustrated by outlawla's case, and the evidence of LO's awarded for a debt of £1

 

In OP's case has the council involved obtained a LO in the relevant tax year, or are they speculating?

[unclebulgaria67]

In OP's case has the council involved obtained a LO in the relevant tax year, or are they speculating?

 

Well the OP says that the LO was obtained in May 2012, for the council tax year 01/02. So in theory they had to obtain the LO within 6 years of 31/3/02 i.e 31/3/08.

 

According to my reading, when the council applied for the LO, they would have had to give testimony to the debt being within 6 years of the final demand being issued. If they have confirmed this, they have given false information to the magistrate.

 

According to the Harrow council site, you can appeal a LO to the magistrates court within 21 days. The OP is a bit late for this, but the OP should ask the chief clerk to the magistrate for the information that was used to gain the LO and appeal against it.

[brassnecked]

Well the OP says that the LO was obtained in May 2012, for the council tax year 01/02. So in theory they had to obtain the LO within 6 years of 31/3/02 i.e 31/3/08.

 

According to my reading, when the council applied for the LO, they would have had to give testimony to the debt being within 6 years of the final demand being issued. If they have confirmed this, they have given false information to the magistrate.

 

According to the Harrow council site, you can appeal a LO to the magistrates court within 21 days. The OP is a bit late for this, but the OP should ask the chief clerk to the magistrate for the information that was used to gain the LO and appeal against it.

 

Definitely something fishy, as they are apparently four years too late to lawfully apply for the LO then.

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes they appear to have made a mistake and the OP must alert the magistrate to this.

[nonymouse]

Thanks for all of this, guys. I now know which Mag court the LO was raised at, and I also have the name of the person I need to speak to there (although they're not there at the moment!) And I've got letters to both the Council and the Court to send by Special Delivery today, which will arrive on Monday morning.

 

I really appreciate all of this assistance and I'll keep you all informed!

[nonymouse]

A very quick update on this. Having written letters (sent Special Delivery) to both the Council and the Magistrate's Court, I heard nothing, and have so far had nothing from any bailiffs (yet... phew...)

 

However, today I have had the following letter (dated 5th July, received 13th July) from the Clerk to the Justices at Sandwell Magistrates Court:

 

Dear Nonymouse

 

I refer to your letter received in my office today with regards to a Liability Order you have received from Sandwell Local Authrity.

 

In relation to the Order, these are issued by Sandwell Local Authority and not the Court. Sandwell Magistrates Court provides a Court room only for the Local Authority in relation to the hearings for Council Tax.

 

Any queries with regards to the Liability Order must be directed to the Local Authority.

 

 

I was always of the impression that a Liability Order was issued by the Court, but apparently not! I continue to await a response from the Council...

[nonymouse]

Just a quick update on this - having heard nothing from the Council in response to my original letter (and having heard nothing from the Bailiffs) I wrote to the council again as a formal complaint. I had a response this morning apologising for not responding and letting me know (after spinning some yarn about not being able to find a forwarding address for me) that the council tax bill (which they still can't seem to prove or produce) is cancelled, and that a £50 cheque for the inconvenience will be sent to me. This nicely covers the £15+ quid I've spent on Special Delivery letters to them and the Magistrates and a bit extra. I think this means I've won!?

[brassnecked]

Just a quick update on this - having heard nothing from the Council in response to my original letter (and having heard nothing from the Bailiffs) I wrote to the council again as a formal complaint. I had a response this morning apologising for not responding and letting me know (after spinning some yarn about not being able to find a forwarding address for me) that the council tax bill (which they still can't seem to prove or produce) is cancelled, and that a £50 cheque for the inconvenience will be sent to me. This nicely covers the £15+ quid I've spent on Special Delivery letters to them and the Magistrates and a bit extra. I think this means I've won!?

 

Well done you, I think you have won

[citizenB]

Nice one. I will amend your thread to reflect this.