Mobile stolen abroad, thief ran up huge bill.

[221b]

Hello

 

Had my mobile stolen abroad recently, when I was pickpocketed.

 

I reported it to the relevant authorities immediately in Brussels and phoned Vodafone immediately on my return to the UK the next day to cancel the phone.

 

I have now been sent a phenomenal bill by Vodafone.

 

Am I liable to pay any of this bill? As phone calls aren't itemised anymore, I don't know how much of the bill is pre-cancelling my phone and how much is post-cancelling it. Have tried to get this info from customer services, but they disappear off the line for so long to go and check and then my call is terminated before tehy return.

 

Can I make Vodafone with all their billions, write off the whole of this debt? What is the best approach if anyone has been here before?

 

Ultimately, I reported it to the relevant authorities the minute I knew it was stolen.

 

I was in Belgium for an operation and had no internet access or anything similar, nor was I in a fit state to do anything further than contact the Belgian police while recovering from anaesthetic. I had no idea what Vodafone's number was abroad, and trying to make my self understood to other people in what I was trying to do was hard enough even with the Police out there.

 

Help!!

 

What do I do?

 

Many thanks...

 

221b

[barracad]

You will be liable for the calls as you didn't report it to Vodafone, so they couldn't have blocked your phone as they didn't know it had been stolen.

 

You could ask for an itemised bill, but I would imagine this would just confirm that the calls were made up to the time you contacted them, at which point they would have blocked it.

[callumsgran]

Why are your call not itemised anymore? I'm on 3 and mine are!

[jo5ephedward5]

vodafone have stopped itemising them - ironically my bills have been £30 a month more since!

 

I think everyone is right you cant ask them to write off the bill if they didnt know the phone was stolen, maybe write to them and explain the situation and see if they can compromise...do you have insurance - as you reported it to the police you may be covered with that

[barracad]

Also, as a seperate issue I would be demanding itemised bills as a matter of course or else how do you know what you're being charged for?

[jo5ephedward5]

i think you can at cost they took it off as standard

[barracad]

So they charge you to tell you how much they are charging you?

 

What an idiotic system!

[jo5ephedward5]

thats Vodafone for you

 

they used to then they just stopped - i get a one page bill now saying Calls, texts & Data and vat and a total for each...

[jo5ephedward5]

...i was on the phone to Voda as i typed - they told me as i have registered online i can view itemised stuff there - they just post a summary to inform me of how much i owe - have cheacked and sure enough its online - try there under my vodafone!

[221b]

Why are your call not itemised anymore? I'm on 3 and mine are!

 

I'm not sure; they've stopped doing it for some reason...

 

Have been with Vodafone for 7 years now and have been a very good customer of theirs. Do you think that this would count for anything?

 

Can I threaten to leave them?

 

Clutching at straws slightly as I don't know what else to do and I can't afford the massive bill - my bills never go above £40 absolute max, usually low £30s and suddenly it's hit a massive hike into the hundreds I imagine for the first time in 7 years and while my phone was abroad (I got cut off just as Customer Service were giving me the worst, but they asked if I was sitting down, so I guess it's pretty hideous)

 

If this were a credit card company, they would do a security check immediately there was abnormal use on the card, especially abroad....

 

Any further suggestions?

 

Thanks in advance...

 

221b

[221b]

The bill is over £1,700!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Surely Vodafone have a duty of care to me to have put a bar on this phone when the calls were this high in the space of 16 hours!!

 

I am extremely upset about this as I have absolutely no means to pay this astronomical bill.

 

Please, if you have any advice, please share it with me.

 

I am very frightened by this situation.

 

Thanks.

 

221b

[buzby]

OOOh - that big? They're anti fraud software should have kicked in LONG before it got to that amount. They are within their rights to a degree (which is why theft insurance is useful - not for the phone, but the risk of being billed). Against this is why was your handset not PIN locked? This too protects you if the phone is switched off then back on - anyone reading this would be well advised to enter and activate a PIN 1 to prevent this happening.

 

Back at Vodafone, I think they need to explain why the phone wasn't blocked for unusual calling patterns before they acted on your phone stolen call.

[221b]

Thanks Okonski

 

My phone is PIN locked, just it was fully blinking charged when I had it nicked and they obviously didn't switch it off, just kept on phoning or downloading or buying porn or whatever it was.

 

Criminy, how does one run up a bill that large in such a short space of time?

 

I'm getting very tearful now as I'm frightened I'm going to be threatened with legal action or something awful, and I really just have no way of paying.

 

I need my mobile for work as I'm self-employed - it's a bit of a lifeline for me and I can't be without it for that reason.

 

I will use your anti-fraud argument; if anyone else has something that I might use as ammunition in my letter to Vodafone that I must write first thing tomorrow, then all contributions very gratefully received...

 

221b:confused:

[221b]

Bounce...

[buzby]

Console yourself that you did everything your reasonably could do under the circumstances, and - worst case scenario - you should not be forced to pay the full cost claimed (including roaming markups) due to the inequeties of charging. There IS room for the network to negotiate - especially by foregoing on their profit element. As to how the bill could reach that much, I'd estimate that the calls made whilst roamed would have been in the £300-400 ball park (exluding any revenue earning chatlines etc) once you get the itemised bill you'll be able to check this. If it was wall-to-wall premium nubers, ANY network should have had provisions in place to knock this phone off much earlier. The fact you were roaming triples the costs anyway. Providing you have been seen to have acted in good faith (SIM lock etc, calling once loss discovered) it would be difficult for any judge not to be sympathetic and decide accordingly. Negotiate hard based on the lax security on the network, and take it from there. Reasonable care is a two-way street!

[221b]

Okonski, you are being so helpful to me, thank you...

 

I actually had a thing called Vodafone Passport on my account which caps calls while roaming to 75p for up to an hour's call. Though I imagine your point about Premium Nos isn't covered by this.

 

Because I have been ill recently, (I ws actually in Belgium for an operation), I'm currently on JSA of £57.45 a week, so you can imagine this elephantine bill is quite scary...

 

I have done some research and rung Vodafone again this morning and a manager will call me back within 48 hours.

 

Am going to try and get proof that I reported it as missing abroad and see if that counts for anything.

 

Also am about to check if I am covered for liability on my household contents section of my insurance.

 

Any further gems that occur to folk, greatly appreciated once more...

 

Thank you for such a supportive site.

 

221b

[buzby]

Many thanks for your appreciation (click the scales above to add to my reputation!). The fact you also were a Passport member should weigh heavily in your favour, as clearly you were doing all you could to act responsibly whilst away from the UK. Hopefully, the manager will take your concerns onboard and realise you didn't sell your handset for a quick £50 just to have someone else defraud them.

 

As to your house insurance, the section that ypou need to look at is Public Liability, as the theft and its aftermath impacted on a third party (Vodafone). They still have a duty of care to you (as a network) and if it is found that your mobile was making premium calls to Belgian chatlines, clearly it wasn't you making them!).

 

If you feel things are not going your way, do get back to me has I have a number of contacts in Newbury who might be able to assist you further, but it might not come to that!

[221b]

I've checked my Contents insurance and there is a clause in the liability section that says the following:

We will not indemnify you for any liability which you have assumed under contract and which would not otherwise have attached.

Does this mean that as I have a contract with Vodafone that the insurers won’t cover my liability?

I'm guessing it does.

Hmmm...

Have added to your reputation and given a glowing report!

Thank you!

221b

[buzby]

On the face of it, this would be correct *however* all cases are taken on their merits and the circumstances also help - the fact you went there for medical treatment, and not on a drunken orgy of the Belgian chocolate eaters appreciation society (!), it all helps. Taken in isolation, a £1,700 phone bill can make your pulse rate quicken somewhat, but the first thing is to see what Vodafone say, and after that plan accordingly. (I've been accused of being rather agressive in my pursuit of fairness for forum members, but I'd still like to know what their fraud prevention software was doing when your bill went over £500.. offline?). Hang in there!

[221b]

Update...

 

Have been fortunate to get some work away from home this week. While away, Vodafone have cut off my phone until I set up a payment plan to repay the £1,700 bill.

 

Regarding their anti-fraud software, when I pressed them on it, apparantly they don't have such a thing! In fact, they only deigned to send me a text message when the bill reached £1,200 asking me to contact them, which was obviously completely pointless as the phone wasn't in my possession. It is not company policy to phone the phone owner, just to text them. Subsequently the bill continued to rocket to the dizzy heights of over £1,700 until I got back to the UK and reported it. I'm curious as to how high they would have let the bill get without freezing the account. Their security seems to be paper thin - I suppose it can be if you ultimately charge the phone owner, in fact, it could be said to be quite a nice little earner for them!

 

Have asked if they can treat the two things as a separate matter - ie I'll wrangle over the £1,700 while still paying my regular monthly bill, but the manager I spoke to refused. And maintained that I will have to pay the entire amount.

 

I've been told that the costs to Vodafone are minimal, as their main costs are linked to erecting masts in the first place and that once this is done it's all profit. Can someone say if that is correct? I don't want to walk on dodgy ground with this in my letter to Vodafone and Otelo (the Ombudsman).

 

If anyone has any insider information on Vodafone or has had a similar experience and is happy to share it, then please do so...

 

Many thanks

 

Helen

[buzby]

Update...

 

Have been fortunate to get some work away from home this week. While away, Vodafone have cut off my phone until I set up a payment plan to repay the £1,700 bill.

 

Regarding their anti-fraud software, when I pressed them on it, apparantly they don't have such a thing! In fact, they only deigned to send me a text message when the bill reached £1,200 asking me to contact them, which was obviously completely pointless as the phone wasn't in my possession. It is not company policy to phone the phone owner, just to text them. Subsequently the bill continued to rocket to the dizzy heights of over £1,700 until I got back to the UK and reported it. I'm curious as to how high they would have let the bill get without freezing the account. Their security seems to be paper thin - I suppose it can be if you ultimately charge the phone owner, in fact, it could be said to be quite a nice little earner for them!

 

Have asked if they can treat the two things as a separate matter - ie I'll wrangle over the £1,700 while still paying my regular monthly bill, but the manager I spoke to refused. And maintained that I will have to pay the entire amount.

 

I've told that the costs to Vodafone are minimal, as their main costs are linked to erecting masts in the first place and that once this is done it's all profit. Can someone say if that is correct? I don't want to walk on dodgy ground with this in my letter to Vodafone and Otelo (the Ombudsman).

 

If anyone has any insider information on Vodafone or has had a similar experience and is happy to share it, then please do so...

 

Many thanks

 

Helen

 

Hi Helen,

 

Some observations;

 

1) Ask them what your credit limit was on your account. (As it appeared not to cause them problems until a text message at £1,200) The fact a further £500 was applied seems to be careless of them.

 

2) Mobiles originally did NOT have roaming enabled, you had to ask for it and then (on request) pay a deposit. Did you ever request roaming, or was it supplied with roaming enabled by default when your contract was activated. The argument here is at no time were you made aware that their anti-fraud measures were so lacklustre as to leaving you exposed to such a high degree. If they fight shy of saying what your credit limit is, or ever advising you of it, they still have been negligent and must share part of the blame.

 

3) As they are being IMHO unreasonable and will not allow you to retain service whilst the matter is resolved, you do want to make arrangements for an alternative service from another carrier before Vodafone trash (hopefully temporarily) your credit record.

 

4) Your arguments are sound until you refer to their main costs. They have to pay annual licence fees, £6bn for 3G, a uk network of 64000 base transmitting stations, the ground rent and electricity, not forgetting staff costs, retail stores, handset subsidiies, fees to other networks for the delivery of calls to the recipient networks - it is a very expensive business, so trying to attack them on that will not succeeed. What IS fair, is that as the calls made were fraudulent and their admission of having no adequate method oif controlling or restricting the handset use. As they pay the Belgian network a standard rate for calls made on your phone, (in bulk) then mark up the rate to add to their profit margin - not in itself an unreasonable scenarion - there is flexibility for them to realise their shortcoming and make a gesture of goodwill.

 

If that fails, OTELLO may be usless, but OFCOM might have more to say. I also think a letter to your MP would be well worth it too......

[221b]

Hi All

 

Apologies for the lengthy post!

 

Just thought it may be of use to other folk in the same position. I have posted Vodafone's reply separately below.

 

Any suggestions as to the next step, as always, greatly appreciated...

 

Thanks

 

221b

 

Dear Mr Read

***** ***** - Customer since 1999

 

0790 *******

 

I am wholly dissatisfied with the complete lack of Customer Service and (non-existent) duty of care that I have received over recent weeks from Vodafone. I felt as Chief Executive Officer of Vodafone UK you should be made aware of the details that have caused this sorry situation to come about.

 

Myself, my family and close friends have been loyal customers of Vodafone for up to seven years and it would seem that this counts for nothing in your eyes.

 

On September 23rd, I had my mobile phone stolen while in Brussels. I was not there for a jolly; I was there for medical treatment following an operation by Dr ************** of the Jan Portaels Hospital in Vilvoorde, Brussels.

 

I was most unfortunate to have been pick-pocketed while in Brussels and not in the best of health at the time. As soon I was aware of the theft, I became very distressed yet managed to make my way to the station authorities, where I reported the theft and filled out the relevant forms. I had no money on me; I felt extremely weak and was very upset. I had no way of contacting my elderly family at home, and was unable to get any other contact details in England having no money - it seemed impossible to make myself understood by the authorities, perhaps my distress at the time might have added to this. I felt I did all I possibly could to take the appropriate steps at the time.

 

Despite several calls to Customer Services, I have been told in no uncertain terms that Vodafone intends to hold me liable for the entire bill of over £1,700.

 

I should like to know why your security measures are ludicrously paper thin. Can I ask what your anti-fraud software was doing at the time that my bill escalated to over £1,700, in a foreign country, in a matter of hours when my average monthly bill over the past seven years has been in the region of £30?

 

I should also like an explanation as to why the phone wasn't blocked for unusual calling patterns before you acted on my phone stolen call immediately upon my return to the UK. I was told by Customer Services that the company policy is to send a text message - well, that’s utterly pointless isn’t it, when a mobile may be stolen - as any human being with average intelligence might ascertain it might have been, just looking at the astronomical proportions that the bill reached in a matter of hours.

 

In addition, I should like information regarding the credit limit on my accountas it appeared not to have given you any cause for concern until it reached the skyscraper level of £1,200 stage, at which stage, the highly effective approach of a text message was employed and sent to my phone. The fact a further £500 spend was enabled over the next few hours seems to be at the very least rather careless of you and at the worst, severely negligent.

 

I understand that mobiles originally did not have roaming enabled, one had to ask for it and then (on request) pay a deposit. I never requested roaming, I understand it was supplied with roaming enabled by default when my contract was activated.

 

At no time was I made aware that your anti-fraud measures are so lacklustre as to leave me as your customer, to whom you have a duty of care, exposed to such a high degree. Had I been informed of this I would certainly have reconsidered my position.

 

I consider your lax security on the network absolutely atrocious. Reasonable care, I might point out, is a two-way street. Surely you have both a duty to your consumers and a contractual arrangement with implied terms to mitigate your losses?

 

I, a mere amateur, with just a with a quick internet search, was able to find this information about anti-fraud software for mobile phones which establishes a normal calling pattern as a baseline - Fair Isaac’s RoamEx Roamer Data Exchange Network is recognized as the world’s leading roaming solution for detecting fraud, improving revenue assurances, reducing bad debt and increasing revenues.

 

RoamEx manages your roaming data processing, formatting and routing to and from roaming partners in near real-time. Visibility of roaming activity is immediate, so fraud is eliminated right when it's discovered. Even better: RoamEx can leverage value-added applications to power third-party applications, such as prepaid services, fraud profilers, churn management systems and more.

 

Are Vodafone, the biggest mobile provider in the world, seriously maintaining that they do not have such a system in place? How extraordinary...

 

Considering the actual cost to Vodafone, (not profit) of the phone calls made by the thief, I feel that Vodafone is exploiting me through the loophole of its lack of anti-fraud software. It would seem in your interest for it not to be working/activated as you could make a tidy sum from those whose phones are stolen simply by charging the customer at your swingeing rates.

 

Regarding your rates, (and I am yet to receive the itemised bill from Vodafone, though have requested one twice so far and am therefore ignorant so far of how exactly the bill was run up), I purposely registered from Vodafone Passport some months ago to ensure the maximum call charge whenever calling from abroad would be 75p a call.

 

I am registered with the Vodafone Passport scheme and have been since my last visit to Brussels in June to see my surgeon prior to my recent operation. On that occasion, I made one telephone call to the UK and I made two UK telephone calls when in France in August. In addition, my phone is PIN locked on switching it on as I’m conscious of security.

 

I found this information regarding Vodafone Passport - All customers, whether pay-monthly or pre-pay, can register free for Vodafone Passport, which applies to making calls home or in country and receiving calls whilst roaming on Vodafone’s preferred networks. On Passport, calls are charged at a customer’s standard plan UK call rate, plus a one-off charge of 75p. The cost of receiving a call is also a one-off 75p charge.

 

I find it additionally remarkable that this facility doesn’t seem to have kicked in even once, in the hours following the theft of my phone. What’s the point of a system like this that doesn’t work properly?

 

The very fact that I am a Vodafone Passport member in the first place should testify to you that I was doing all I could, to act responsibly whilst away from the UK.

 

What is totally unfair regarding the use of my phone abroad, is that the calls made were clearly fraudulent and you admit having no adequate method of controlling or restricting the handset use. As you pay the Belgian network a standard rate for calls made on my phone, (in bulk) then mark up the rate to add to your profit margin - not in itself an unreasonable scenario in ordinary, non-fraudulent circumstances - there is a deal of flexibility for you to realise your appalling shortcomings and act accordingly by waiving this bill.

 

I, however, in contrast, am currently in receipt of Jobseekers Allowance to the tune of £57.45 a week. Weighing up my financial situation compared to Vodafone’s income from 13.1 billion customers worldwide, to Vodafone, the sum of £1,700 would be an absolute micro-drop in the ocean, yet to me this is a phenomenal amount of money.

 

I’ve also asked about Vodafone’s own company insurance, but am yet to receive a straight answer from anyone on this. Surely Vodafone are covered for such eventualities?

 

I am truly appalled at the utterly unfair and unreasonable treatment I have received from Vodafone following the distressing theft of my phone.

 

Vodafone seems to have utterly absolved itself of any Corporate Social Responsibility and duty of care to me as a customer in this matter which I feel is utterly shameful.

Much is made on your website of Vodafone recognising its responsibility to communicate fairly with customers at all times.

 

Vodafone values its long-term reputation with customers and believes that it should always act to earn their trust and loyalty. Several issues are key to maintaining the trust of our customers. Underpinning this is the need for our communications with customers and potential customers always to be clear, transparent and fair.

 

May I draw your attention to a detail in your code of ethics regarding integrity which the Board of Directors of Vodafone Group Plc has adopted and is applicable to all its Relevant Officers - part of which is to promote honest and ethical conduct, including the ethical handling of actual or apparent conflicts of interest; and require prompt internal reporting of breaches of, and accountability for adherence to, the Code.

 

I mentioned at the outset of my letter, my hitherto loyalty to Vodafone and the fact that several of my friends and family are also loyal customers. We will have absolutely no compunction in leaving you at the earliest opportunity should this situation not be resolved in a reasonable and fair manner - I am happy to provide you with a long list (20+) of those people and their mobile telephone numbers who support me wholeheartedly in my pursuance of fairness in treatment from you.

 

I’m sure it wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that their collective monthly bills, totted up, would come to more than £1,700 in no time.

 

Though not working at present due to recuperation, I am a freelance contributor (number 102**024) with the BBC and will have absolutely no hesitation in forwarding the folder of information I have regarding the unfair and unreasonable treatment I have received from Vodafone to my various consumer programme-maker colleagues - I’m sure they would be delighted to run a feature on it.

 

I also have no hesitation in contacting the business magazine programme ‘Working Lunch’ who would equally be delighted to hear of your treatment of me.

 

I have already notified OTELO and OFCOM of the upsetting course of events that has happened, and they have asked me to keep them informed of the progress I make in encouraging you to come to a reasonable and fair shift in focus, on what is, for me, a most distressing situation - as if I haven’t been through enough already...

 

In addition I shall be sending a copy of this letter to my MP, Damien Green, informing him fully of the situation and asking him to take up my cause.

 

I feel duty bound to tell you that due to the seriousness of the matter, there is a very real possibility of litigation; as a result I request that I be furnished with a correspondence address to forward to my solicitor to enable the negotiations to proceed.

 

I look forward to receiving your detailed reply.

 

In the meantime, as a gesture towards my standing as a loyal Vodafone customer, I expect to find my connection to the network live once more and retain service whilst the matter is resolved - it having been summarily disconnected with no notice, while my phone was switched off on Wednesday afternoon last week. What a lovely example of ‘ethical conduct’.

 

Yours sincerely

 

***** *****

 

 

Mr Nick Read

CEO Vodafone UK

Vodafone House

The Connection

Newbury

Berkshire

RG14 2FN

England

[barracad]

their admission of having no adequate method oif controlling or restricting the handset use.

 

They do. If they had been informed the phone was stolen, they could have blocked it. However they weren't informed, so didn't know it was stolen - they had no need to restrict the handset use.

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

[221b]

This is Vodafone's reply to the letter above...

 

Hmm...

 

Dear ******

 

I am writing further to your letter addressed to Nick Read our UK Chief Executive Officer. Mr Read has asked me to thank you and respond on his behalf.

 

Firstly, I would like to say how sorry I am to hear that your handset was stolen from your possession, whilst roaming in Brussels and can appreciate how distressing the situation must have been for you.

 

May I take this opportunity to clarify that whilst we have measures in place to protect our business and our customers from high usage on the network, we cannot offer this as a guaranteed service as we simply do not have the capability to monitor every mobile telephone. Our Credit Alerts Department receive over 10,000 alerts on a daily basis and have to prioritise the information they are sent. (Not quite sure why mine wasn't a priority at over £1,700!) A new team has reently been created to manage these alerts however it will never be a perfect solution and therefore will never be a service we can guarantee. How convenient for them!

 

I would also like to advise you that in out Terms and Consitions under the heading of Loss/theft of Sim card/mobile devise (sic). You will be required to pay for all call charges up to the time you notify us that it has been lost or stolen and you will be liable for the monthly (or other periodic) line rental charges thereafter until the Agreement has ended.

 

As a gesture of goodwill I would like to offer 25 percent of the call charges made in Spetember 2006, this equates to the sum of £435.80 inclusive of VAT. Please find enclosed a copy of the October invoice for your perusal.

 

Should you wish to accept my offer which is valid for a period of 30 days, please contact me on the number listed below. Please note my working hours are 8.30 am to 5.00 pm Monday to Friday.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Warren Caddy

[buzby]

At least things are moving, they've offered 25% - since they get at least 40% as a mark up on roamied calls I think there's still some scope, especially since Vodafone would want to profit from the proceeds of a crime?

 

Hasve you received a breakdown of all the charges applied to the account? I think your next move is to ask them to provide a fully detailed itemisation so that you can discover how the chargeswere calculated, before agreeing to anything - be non-committal and above all, civil!