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    • Hello dx100uk, After months of waiting for a response I finally got a reply and I must say it was the worst 4 months of my life the - fear of the unknown. So, they wrote back and said I was in the wrong BUT on this occasion they  would not take action but keep me on file for the next 12 months. It. was the biggest relief of my life a massive weight lifted -  I would like to thank you and the team for all your support
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    • Yup, for goodness sake she needs to stop paying right now, DCA's are powerless, as .  Is it showing on their credit file? Best to use Check my file. All of the above advice is excellent, definitely SAR the loan company as soon as possible.
    • Hi all, I am wandering if this is appealable. It has already been through a challenge on the Islington website and the it was rejected. Basically there was a suspended bay sign on a post on Gee st which was obscured by a Pizza van. The suspension was for 3 bays outside 47 Gee st. I parked outside/between 47 & 55 Gee st. I paid via the phone system using a sign a few meters away from my car. When I got back to the car there was a PCN stuck to the windscreen which I had to dry out before I could read it due to rain getting into the plastic sticky holder.  I then appealed using the Islington website which was then rejected the next day. I have attached a pdf of images that I took and also which the parking officer took. There are two spaces in front of the van, one of which had a generator on it the other was a disabled space. I would count those as 3 bays? In the first image circled in red is the parking sign I read. In the 2nd image is the suspension notice obscured by the van. I would have had to stand in the middle of the road to read this, in fact that's where I was standing when I took the photo. I have pasted the appeal and rejection below. Many thanks for looking. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This is my appeal statement: As you can see from the image attached (image 1) I actually paid £18.50 to park my car in Gee st. I parked the car at what I thought was outside 55 Gee st as seen in image 2 attached. When I read the PCN issued it stated there was a parking suspension. There was no suspension notice on the sign that I used to call the payment service outside number 55 Gee st. I looked for a suspension notice and eventually found one which was obscured by a large van and generator parked outside 47 Gee st. As seen in images 3 and 4 attached. I am guessing the parking suspension was to allow the Van to park and sell Pizza during the Clerkenwell design week. I was not obstructing the use or parking of the van, in fact the van was obstructing the suspension notice which meant I could not read or see it without prior knowledge it was there. I would have had to stand in the road to see it endangering myself as I had to to take images to illustrate the hidden notice. As there was no intention to avoid a parking charge and the fact the sign was not easily visible I would hope this challenge can be accepted. Many thanks.   This is the text from the rejection: Thank you for contacting us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a suspended bay or space. I note from your correspondence that there was no suspension notice on the sign that you used to call the payment serve outside number 55 Gee Street. I acknowledge your comments, however, your vehicle was parked in a bay which had been suspended. The regulations require the suspension warning to be clearly visible. It is a large bright yellow sign and is erected by the parking bay on the nearest parking plate to the area that is to be suspended. Parking is then not permitted in the bay for any reason or period of time, however brief. The signs relating to this suspension were sited in accordance with the regulations. Upon reviewing the Civil Enforcement Officer's (CEO's) images and notes, I am satisfied that sufficient signage was in place and that it meets statutory requirements. Whilst I note that the signage may have been obstructed by a large van and generator at the time, please note, it is the responsibility of the motorist to locate and check the time plate each time they park. This will ensure that any changes to the status of the bay are noted. I acknowledge that your vehicle possessed a RingGo session at the time, however, this does not authorize parking within a suspended bay. Suspension restrictions are established to facilitate specific activities like filming or construction, therefore, we anticipate the vehicle owner to relocate the vehicle from the suspended area until the specified date and time when the suspension concludes. Leaving a vehicle unattended for any period of time within a suspended bay, effectively renders the vehicle parked in contravention and a Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) may issue a PCN. Finally, the vehicle was left parked approximately 5 metres away from the closest time plate notice. It is the responsibility of the driver to ensure they park in a suitable parking place and check all signs and road markings prior to leaving their vehicle parked in contravention. It remains the driver's responsibility to ensure that the vehicle is parked legally at all times. With that being said, I would have to inform you, your appeal has been rejected at this stage. Please see the below images as taken by the CEO whilst issuing the PCN: You should now choose one of the following options: Pay the penalty charge. We will accept the discounted amount of £65.00 in settlement of this matter, provided it is received by 10 June 2024. After that date, the full penalty charge of £130.00 will be payable. Or Wait for a Notice to Owner (NtO) to be issued to the registered keeper of the vehicle, who is legally responsible for paying the penalty charge. Any further correspondence received prior to the NtO being issued may not be responded to. The NtO gives the recipient the right to make formal representations against the penalty charge. If we reject those representations, there will be the right of appeal to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicator.   Gee st pdf.pdf
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RLP - and the Retailer which dares not speak its name loses their case in Oxford County Court


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Judgment handed down today. Further details to follow.

 

We don't yet know whether the anonymity order has been confirmed - so for the moment we must honour the retailer's request that they would rather that none of the other businesses in the High Street - nor their customers - nor their shareholders know precisely who it was went on this Bounty Hunting exercise against two silly girls who took items from their shop.

 

Of course, we don't condone shoplifting - and we recognise the right of any business to recoup its losses but to turn this into a revenue-earning exercise for some enterprise which decides to turn human error and human silliness into a cash cow and which seems to go for anyone regardless of that peson's personal circumstances and regardless of the circumstances of the case - is really going too far.

 

 

There seems to be a whole bounty-hunting industry vogue at the moment.

Civil recovery isn't only about shoplifting, it is about file-sharing, private parkiong, debt collecting, bailiffs - you name it.

 

The effect of the industry - even if it is not the intention - is that once a person is down, to give them a good kicking and to keep on kicking until they have been bled of their last drop.

The Civil recovery industry is, in effect, usurping our justice system. At least our justice system tries to listen to the facts, tries to treat people as individuals, tries to apply action or sanctions tailored to the wrongdoer and to the events and to the effect of those events.

At least our justice system tries to set people back on their path.

At least our justice system isn't in it for a quick buck - and damn the consequences.

 

What on earth has possessed A Retailer and other decent well-reputed companies to risk their good name on this kind of stuff?

Maybe a good reputation is like stock, nowadays - pile it high and sell it cheap.

 

I think that it brings a certain shame upon our society - is this David Cameron's Big Society?

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Leave to appeal refused.

 

Of course, it doesn't stop A Retailer from appealing the refusal - but I have a sense that A Retailer would rather keep their heads down ... (in shame???)

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Couldnt agree more, instead of just acting like proper solicitors and waiting for a case to come along in which they can represent people there has been a rise in companies (sometimes actual solicitors, sometimes not) who are sniffinmg around looking for an 'in'and a way to make money from nothing, file sharing is an obvious one, which took bad publicity, SRA sanctions and an eventual court case for the process to end (I'm thinking mainly of ACS Law).

 

Private parking contractors are another one, it is no doubt that due to the disgraceful way that many behaved (in particular my local villans LBS Enforcement) thjat was behind the decision to outlaw it.

 

Civil Recovery is the laterst monster to rear its head and many have been pointing out the flaws in its (mostly RLP's) arguments for a long time, so can we expect this latest news to appear on the RLP website ?, will Mawrey be making comment ? :)

 

Andy

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I agree with all the comments so far.

 

If the retailer who must not be named decideded to dispense with these money makers and follow the rules and take people to court for their actual losses (if any) then I don't think we would be here today railing at RLP and their practices.

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I've ordered a transcript of the judgment and this will be available for viewing as soon as it received.

Could take three weks or so though.

 

You might be able to find a summary on RLP website as they like to publish their trophies - and this judgment must rank as a particularly significant one, mustn't it.

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I've ordered a transcript of the judgment and this will be available for viewing as soon as it received.

Could take three weks or so though.

 

You might be able to find a summary on RLP website as they like to publish their trophies - and this judgment must rank as a particularly significant one, mustn't it.

 

Im tempted to email them and ask why I cant view this latest case ? :)

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I've been following a couple of RLP stories, and wondering now this has been shown up, how the stores are going to react.

 

I've avoided two particular stores in town because I do not approve of the way they target ordinary people making a mistake whilst ill or in a hurry.

 

I also think now the stores involved in RLP will be thinking 'RIP RLP' instead to save their reputations in these difficult times.

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I think any bad reputation these stores get is deserved, they should look into RLP properly and understand what they do before they decide to use them. They should have more respect for their customers than that.

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It is difficult to imagine how RLP will persuade retailers to utilise their unsavoury services now that the proper authorities have decided that they can't recover their made-up charges through court. This has, after all, been the only sanction that RLP have to threaten their targets with.

 

They took a few undefended cases to court to try to show that they did issue and they did win. Everyone saw through this pathetic ruse in short order.

 

Now one of their biggest clients - and let us not forget the part played in court by RLP - have lost the only properly defended case to come before a judge.

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Comment on this case, prior to judgement, on a Tesco staff forum:

 

The case was heard at Oxford County Court on 26/27 April and the Judge has reserved judgment - to be announced at a later date. It is the subject of an anonymity order over the Claimant and Defendants, and focuses on the legality of what Civil Recovery may claim as 'costs' from alleged shoplifters. I say 'alleged' because although many are undoubtedly guilty, and may even admit their theft, they only remain 'accused' of wrongdoing unless the case is progressed through Court.

 

There have been an ever increasing number of complaints to the authorities about the demands made by Civil Recovery companies - with juveniles, vulnerable people and sometimes those who were guilty of genuine forgetfulness in leaving an item unpaid for at a checkout receiving demands over many months, and organisations such as CAB have been extremely critical as beyond threatening letters, very few cases have been taken to a defended case in court - remember this is civil law not criminal, and a decision the wrong way for the CR industry could set a precedent that undermines their business model - the CR company takes the lion's share of whatever is recovered and stands to lose a significant amount of income. In law, any demand which exceeds the actual loss incurred is a penalty, and as such is unrecoverable as a penalty can only be imposed by a Court or a properly appointed body, not a private company.

 

As so many people are now just ignoring CR demands as the vast majority of cases don't go beyond the letter stage - think of this in the same way as parking charges on private land - you don't have to pay them as the legal authority for the demand is extremely flimsy and parking companies are reluctant to see their claim tested in court - a test case has been arranged where two shoplifters have ignored the CR claims and the demand has been followed up with a county court claim.

 

Civil Recovery allows a business to reclaim only genuine and actual losses incurred as a result of wrongdoing, and this is more straightforward to pursue if the case has been to criminal Court first to prove guilt, however Retail Loss Prevention, the company used by us, and other retailers (and who presented the case at Oxford, but for another retailer, not Tesco), take the name and address of those caught in store and then write to claim a fixed amount of 'costs' (normally £87.50 or £137.50 depending on the value of goods). Whilst the law allows such a recovery of costs where these are a genuine account of losses suffered, the counter-argument is that in invoicing for a fixed amount, RLP are not making an accurate demand, for in most cases the goods are recovered in a saleable condition, the security staff and others involved in apprehension and interview are already on duty and therefore being paid anyway, so no loss was actually involved. This is the main consideration for the Judge in the case, for the law cannot agree that such demands are lawful unless RLP, or the store can demonstrate that either extra staff had to be brought in and paid where they would not normally have been, or that the distraction of security staff caused other shoplifters to steal goods which would otherwise have been detected - and how can a cost be calculated for that?

 

Many submissions were heard on both sides - the Judge wanted to know for example how much the security staff (TSS in this case) are paid (£12 - £14 per hour apparently!) in order to try and gauge how long they were distracted for (15 minutes or so) and how this could equate to a loss of £137.50 - times 2 as there are 2 defendants.

 

This case, whichever way it goes, will be unlikely to change anything too drastically as it stands, although RLP may have to reassess the way in which costs are calculated. They may have to be clearer about how many staff were involved at £XX per hour for example, but the longer term potential implication could go further. As a county court case it would not set legal precedent, although would be a 'persuasive' argument for others in defending future court claims, but if the losing side in this case were to appeal, and an appeal court were to overturn the earlier decision, then this could open the way for those previously charged, and who paid up, to take action to recover the money!

 

http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=11967.0

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Do most of you know or have a good idea as to who the retailer that does not speak it's name is!? It's bugging me :-) I'd like to know if it is who I would like it to be!

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Do most of you know or have a good idea as to who the retailer that does not speak it's name is!? It's bugging me :-) I'd like to know if it is who I would like it to be!

To answer this question on this forum could put us and the person responding in contempt of court

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What do you think this result means for those of us who have received letters from RLP? Do you think they will bother keeping at it or do you reckon they will give up on those ignoring them?

 

I think it will make it very difficult for them to even consider going near court again if you continue to refuse to pay them!

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I wonder if they will go out of business eventually once people cotton on, especially those who have the good sense to ask you guys for advice. You have been my rock throughout and i will always be grateful to everyone who gave me their advice and opinion. Hopefully retailers who use them will come to their senses and try to put in place a better deterrent system in the future.

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What do you think this result means for those of us who have received letters from RLP? Do you think they will bother keeping at it or do you reckon they will give up on those ignoring them?

I would say that the prudent thing is to respond to the lett5er and tell them that you are aware of the Oxford judgment and that they should take you to court and you will be happy to defend vigorously.

I'm not at all sure that it is a good idea to ignore them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

A bit late to this one but excellent news, as any company they denies due process, and issues unenforceable demands deserves a kicking in court.

We could do with some help from you.

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