Advice please

[brassnecked]

It was a large sprinter van ... But the as per previous posts most of the items on levy are invalid.

So all they could of attempted to take was a vacum cleaner and laptop...i believe the only valid items on the levy.

In which case it should be returned Nullo Bono, insufficient goods.

[Helpme11]

Just recieved letter from council!..

Basicaly saying they dont intervene and the debt was passed correctly to bristow so we have to deal with them!

At the bottom of the letter it says bristow will be advised of any direct payments to the council.??

What do they mean by that?

Also they have mentioned that they cant take you to court for non payment but the council can commence commital proceedings!! Surley they cant if we keep paying them direct?

[brassnecked]

Just recieved letter from council!..

Basicaly saying they dont intervene and the debt was passed correctly to bristow so we have to deal with them!

At the bottom of the letter it says bristow will be advised of any direct payments to the council.??

What do they mean by that?

Also they have mentioned that they cant take you to court for non payment but the council can commence commital proceedings!! Surley they cant if we keep paying them direct?

 

No the council cannot have you committed to prison, for paying them direct rather than their agent Bristow &stupor, for whom they are 100% responsible, if they went for committal, I think your MP would be most interested, and the court would kick their backsides imho

[Helpme11]

Ok thank you will keep paying the council!

They mentioned that i would have to query the levy with bristow! And the vehicle on finance that i made them aware of!.. I dont want to queru anything with bristow and sutor! I was making the council aware that they need to let bailiffs know that the vehicle is exempt from being clamped/levied!

They have made me feel like i have made the situation worse now

[brassnecked]

Ok thank you will keep paying the council!

They mentioned that i would have to query the levy with bristow! And the vehicle on finance that i made them aware of!.. I dont want to queru anything with bristow and sutor! I was making the council aware that they need to let bailiffs know that the vehicle is exempt from being clamped/levied!

They have made me feel like i have made the situation worse now

You will have to request a fee breakdown if you haven't already, so that they provide a list of everything they have charged for and when, and they should give youa list of what is on the levy, they must do this irrespective of whether you pay the council or not.

[Helpme11]

I have a breakdown and all the stuff listed on the levy.

This is what i wrote to the council about .

That the levy was not right..and charges etc.

But they seem to have just fobbed me of saying i have to query it with bristow and they cant intervene!

Think i have written the breakdown somwhere on this thread.(page 3). Feell like they are going to turn up on purpose now Just to levy on a car i have made them aware of.I gave council vehicle reg and told them to make sure bristow are aware that this car is on finance..feeling like i made a mistake now.. :0

[Helpme11]

Ok i wrote council and got following response from bristow!!!

 

 

We have been forwarded your below email via our clients, London Borough of Hillingdon Council, who have asked us to respond directly to you in relation to the matters which concern us.

*

Firstly, we would therefore like to explain that we have been instructed by the council to collect unpaid council tax arrears from you.* A Liability Order has been issued in joint names in court.* The law directs us as Certificated Bailiffs to levy distress and remove your goods to be sold at public auction.* There is no legal requirement for us to make an agreement with you nor give you time to pay, however, we may do so in some instances in accordance with the guidelines set for us by the council.

*

You claim that in October 2011, when the bailiff levied distress the bailiff gained access into your home after telling you he would call the police or get a locksmith if you did not.* Our records indicate that peaceable access was gained by both of you and we refute the accusation made.* We would furthermore, question why this claim was not made following the visit?

*

It is important to note that even if the bailiff had gained access via deceptive means, this would not render the levy incorrect as you claim. Although we do not believe the bailiff did act in the way you describe, the case of R v Backhouse (1771), which is quoted by the John Kruse in his book The Law of Seizure of Goods: Debtors Rights and Remedies, suggests that if a bailiff did gain access by deception it would not invalidate the distress.

*

So either way, the levy remains correct and legal.

*

Moving on to the claims that some items should be exempt or do not belong to you, we have the following comments to make:

*

So far to date, it does not appear that we have seen any evidence to substantiate any claim that you do not own some of the items seized, if this is the case, you will need to provide evidence for us to consider further.* As for the exemption of items, this is merely your interpretation of the regulations, they do not say chairs and tables should not be seized or removed.* In the event the bailiff returned to remove goods, he would make the decision at this point what “items of equipment are necessary for satisfying the BASIC domestic needs of the debtor and his family”.

*

Again, we consider the levy to be correct and legal. *

*

With regard to us taking you to court we are also confused by this comment.* You have already been taken to court and a Liability Order issued against you.* The bailiff in question cannot recall discussing court with you and we are sorry for any confusion which may have been caused.* The bailiff was there for the balance in full or to remove goods and was correct to explain this.*

*

We hope that the above now answers your concerns.* We would request that you contact us immediately to discuss your proposals for repayment of the outstanding amount of £6488.74.

 

 

What should i do next???

[Helpme11]

Anyone?.. . Was planning on paying council online tonight?

[Helpme11]

Ok i wrote to the council and as they are sooo helpfull!!! They forwarded my email to bristow to deal with!!

I wrote the following and the response is below!

I really dont know what to do now!

 

I am writing to complain about the conduct of YOUR agent Bristow and Sutor.

 

Due to financial difficulties we were unable to to pay £200 to bristow and sutor end of January as per there agreement.

We also felt vunerable as we knew the £200* agreement was coming to an end and we were going to be asked to put the payments up.

 

Due to this we felt we should pay what we could afford direct to yourselves.

I did attempt to speak to someone on the phone about this a couple a weeks ago on the hillingdon ctax phone number but was alomost reduced to tears by a very rude lady who said it is nothing to do with us you will have to deal with the bailiffs direct! She also said if i dont pay they will break into your house! You will be in trouble!!

Unfortunatly i did not get her name.

As i was so distressed during the call.

I have on severel occasions tried to contact yourselves and again told its nothing to do with yourselves.

 

So i made a payment of £50 online direct to council. I dont dispute the bill I* just could not afford to pay £200 and felt to intimidated to approach bristow and sutor as they had already said i would have no choice but to pay.

 

Most importantly the reason we have been struggling and paying £200 was because we were under the impression our goods could be taken on most occasions we had to borrow money to pay this agreement which got us into further financial difficulties.We are now in a debt management plan to get this resolved.

 

In oct 2010 we had a visit from Bristow and were told if we did not let them in they would call the police or get locksmiths.We now understand this to be a verbal threat as the bailiff did NOT have the right to enter the property but unfortunatly we let him in.

He then proceeded to levy on goods ..we have also since found the levy to be invalid as:

1-goods listed are not the value of the debt.

2-dvds listed belong to my 4yr old daughter(childrens items are exempt)

3-sofas (this would of left us with no seating)

4-step ladder -not my property it belongs to a family member for his business-again exempt

5-coffee table again exempt as this would leave us without something to eat on as there are no other tables.

6-tv -listed without the remote-this makes it of no value.

 

There are items listed that are not exempt we do not dispute that but they would be of insufficient value.

 

To date we have paid bristow and sutor a total of £2052.00.

Also this amount is worth more than the amount of goods listed.

 

Today (13/02/12)we had a visit from 2 bailiffs.

Who informed us we have breached the contract and that this visit has added fees of £205.00.

They then told my husband that he would have to pay full amount or pay them what we have missed.

My husband informed them we are unable to do this and that we have paid the council direct.

The bailiff then proceeded to tell my husband thats fine you can explain to the judge why you think you are exempt from paying council tax!

 

We have never said we are exempt??

We have never disputed the bill?

We are not saying we will NOT pay!

 

So please could someone clarify why bristow and sutor are threatning us with court? I was under the impression a bailiff does not have the power to do this? As i understand this is down to the council themselves??

 

We would like you contact Bristow and sutor and ask them to refrain from visiting our property again as this caused a considerable amount of stress to my husband who works nights and was with my 4yr old daughter whilst the bailiff was threating him and making him feel vunerable.

 

Please note WE ARE NOT disputing the debt we want to pay it!

We just need to come to an affordable payment without the threating behaviour of bailiffs! If need be we will fill out an expenses form with our incomings and outgoings.

 

In the mean time we will continue to pay yourselves online.

 

Please also note we are not disputing the bristow and sutor fees as long as we are given a correct* breakdown of exactly what the fees are.

 

****PLEASE ALSO NOTE WE HAVE A VEHICLE ON THE DRIVE WHICH IS CURRENTLY UNDER A* FINANCE AGREEMENT**** vehicle reg xxxxxxx

this is also exempt from being levied/clamped please advise bristow and sutor of this as we are well aware of the tactics bailiffs use to try and get there money.and we have now informed yourselves to inform your agent.

We can fwd paperwork to show this if needed.

 

As previously mentioned we are NOT in any way disputing the council tax debt .

And WILL pay but need to come to an affordable agreement with yourselves.

 

I would also like to point out that unless this is resolved I will be taking the matter further as i understand you (the council) can be held fully responsible for the actions of bristow and sutor and CAN ask them to withdraw at anytime.

As everytime I have tried to resolve this on the phone I have been fobbed of with "nothing to do with us deal with the bailiffs"!

Obviously I want to get this resolved without having to make further official complaints .

 

 

Bristows answer!!

 

We have been forwarded your below email via our clients, London Borough of Hillingdon Council, who have asked us to respond directly to you in relation to the matters which concern us.

*

Firstly, we would therefore like to explain that we have been instructed by the council to collect unpaid council tax arrears from you.* A Liability Order has been issued in joint names in court.* The law directs us as Certificated Bailiffs to levy distress and remove your goods to be sold at public auction.* There is no legal requirement for us to make an agreement with you nor give you time to pay, however, we may do so in some instances in accordance with the guidelines set for us by the council.

*

You claim that in October 2011, when the bailiff levied distress the bailiff gained access into your home after telling you he would call the police or get a locksmith if you did not.* Our records indicate that peaceable access was gained by both of you and we refute the accusation made.* We would furthermore, question why this claim was not made following the visit?

*

It is important to note that even if the bailiff had gained access via deceptive means, this would not render the levy incorrect as you claim. Although we do not believe the bailiff did act in the way you describe, the case of R v Backhouse (1771), which is quoted by the John Kruse in his book The Law of Seizure of Goods: Debtors Rights and Remedies, suggests that if a bailiff did gain access by deception it would not invalidate the distress.

*

So either way, the levy remains correct and legal.

*

Moving on to the claims that some items should be exempt or do not belong to you, we have the following comments to make:

*

So far to date, it does not appear that we have seen any evidence to substantiate any claim that you do not own some of the items seized, if this is the case, you will need to provide evidence for us to consider further.* As for the exemption of items, this is merely your interpretation of the regulations, they do not say chairs and tables should not be seized or removed.* In the event the bailiff returned to remove goods, he would make the decision at this point what “items of equipment are necessary for satisfying the BASIC domestic needs of the debtor and his family”.

*

Again, we consider the levy to be correct and legal. *

*

With regard to us taking you to court we are also confused by this comment.* You have already been taken to court and a Liability Order issued against you.* The bailiff in question cannot recall discussing court with you and we are sorry for any confusion which may have been caused.* The bailiff was there for the balance in full or to remove goods and was correct to explain this.*

*

We hope that the above now answers your concerns.* We would request that you contact us immediately to discuss your proposals for repayment of the outstanding amount of £6488.74.

[regan11]

I would be inclined to carry on paying the council direct via their online facility. Cut the bailiff out of the loop completley. Write to the Bailiff company and ask for a breakdown of their fees [you'll find the template letter in many of the threads] I'll guarantee you have been overcharged.If they do turn up at any point do not open the door to them and try and record everything they say. People with more practical advice will be along in a minute. Good luck.

[ims21]

Two threads merged

[Helpme11]

In a bit of a panic now....

[impecunious]

You've been given great advice and support from fellow CAGgers. Why are you panicking now?? Has something else happened?

 

Impecunious!

[Helpme11]

Im panicking because of their response...which they sent yesterday saying levy still stands etc...

Looks like council wont deal with it and passed to bristow!

So should i just keep paying council?.

Sorry i do appreciate all the advice!.

Im just worried.

[brassnecked]

keep paying the council,

[Helpme11]

So this reply is just another threat?..

Should i reply to them or write to council again?.

[Helpme11]

So what do they mean by there letter?

Can they take the goods?

Ive paid the council but in a panic as usual!..

[impecunious]

Even with a levy (albeit irregular), the bailiffs wouldn't be able to enter your property to remove goods without a court order and, from what I've read on here, that is highly improbable in respect of council tax arrears.

 

You'll really have to maintain a seige mentality - keep all your windows and doors locked, don't leave anything of value outside and park your car well away from your home. Even though your car is on finance, the bailiffs may try to levy against it. They're pretty thick-skinned - no amount of telling will persuade them that you know better than them. Don't worry, they can't levy on a vehicle on finance because technically it doesn't belong to you until the final payment has been made. And, if they do, that can be dealt with too.

 

This has to become your mantra! Don't let them in. There is no law that says you have to deal with them. Just keep a record of any future visits and try to video them in case you need to make a formal complaint to the council at a later stage.

 

Just keep on paying the council direct in respect of your arrears and don't forget to keep your current council tax up to date. The council can't refuse your payments. I've noticed you've already paid them. If you pay them weekly, you'll very quickly build up a record of regular payments and this will stand in your favour.

 

Knowledge is power and you have to empower yourself.

 

I know it's easier said than done BUT really, most of us have been there and we've survived to tell the tale. The bailiffs rely on you being weak and taking their threats seriously, so you have to keep strong.

 

Just try and keep things in perspective.

 

We're all here to help.

 

 

Impecunious!

[wonkeydonkey]

Very good post impecunious and cagger will be wise to follow it.

 

WD

[Helpme11]

Thanks everyone . Im just so annoyed the council forwarded the email to bristow to deal with when the complaint was to them they are the ones that instruct them! Grrrrr!

[ploddertom]

That is because the Council haven't a clue and pass it to their whiter than white contractors who will obviously find no fault with what has happened. Nothing with Bailiffs happens overnight and you have to be prepared for the long haul with plenty of letter writing back & forth. The Council will no doubt back themselves into a corner when they apparently condone all the Bailiffs action & charges, then when the iron is hot you strike at the very top and see if they will eat humble pie. If they don't then off to the LGO.

 

PT

[Helpme11]

They have just visited again!! Left a letter through door saying notice of seizure!

They have put down 3 cars 2 parked on drive one that belongs to my father in law! One on finance and one parked outside which belongs to my neighbour!

Should i contact them now?

So stressed! I have already paid council this month.

[brassnecked]

Issue a formal complaint stressing you will be looking to escalate to the Local Government Ombudsman if you have no joy, as they have yet again visited and carried out an irregular levy on third party vehicles/.

You could indicate in a letter your intention to initiate a regulation 46 complaint at the magistrates court with the council as defendant, as their agent, for who they are wholly liable has carried out another invalid levy, and you are aggrieved by it.

Edited March 8, 2012 by brassnecked

[Helpme11]

Thankyou! How do i go about this?

Do i need to contact bristow first as am worried they will come back soon to clamp!.

[brassnecked]

Thankyou! How do i go about this?

Do i need to contact bristow first as am worried they will come back soon to clamp!.

Tell B&S that the cars are all third party, and the levy is invalid, they will spout garbage and rant but you will have to send another Formal complaint to the council as a second stage indicating you are going to escalate to the LGO.

 

hopefullt ploddertom or one of the others will be along soon to highlight options also,

 

Here is the legislation, and it would appear you contact the court and ask them to issue a summons against the council unde this head, as you are aggrieved by their bailiffs irregular levy on third party items, vis cars, belonging to others, further their insistence that their agent B & S are correct in this action, in spite of the evidence to the contrary, along with their insistence on an impossible level of proof they are asking for regarding ownership.

 

Appeals in connection with distress46.—(1) A person aggrieved by the levy of, or an attempt to levy, a distress may appeal to a magistrates' court.(2) The appeal shall be instituted by making complaint to a justice of the peace, and requesting the issue of a summons directed to the authority which levied or attempted to levy the distress to appear before the court to answer to the matter by which the person is aggrieved.(3) If the court is satisfied that a levy was irregular, it may order the goods distrained to be discharged if they are in the possession of the authority; and it may by order award compensation in respect of any goods distrained and sold of an amount equal to the amount which, in the opinion of the court, would be awarded by way of special damages in respect of the goods if proceedings were brought in trespass or otherwise in connection with the irregularity under regulation 45(7).(4) If the court is satisfied that an attempted levy was irregular, it may by order require the authority to desist from levying in the manner giving rise to the irregularity.

Edited March 8, 2012 by brassnecked