DWP Interview Under Caution

[Zonker]

The magistrates probably thought, holy moly that dude wants to be crucified..

 

Only kidding , crown court is risky because one thing they can do is impose a greater sentence than magistrates. But then again issues where magistrates would be ok with, crown court wouldnt. Then there is the costs involved , magistrates is cheap.

 

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070706102737AAFPuVh

 

bad monkey answer is rough and ready approximation.

[sinkinghelp]

Hello

 

Thanks for the reply

 

I opted for Crown Court it is a risk but I need the input of professional people and ordinary jurors to look openly at this case

 

The shock of today being told that it was a private prosecution brought by the Council and they were also including the DWP portion as well - especially nothing was stated on the summons

 

That did knock the wind out of my sails

 

I thought the DWP may have sent me a letter stating they intended to prosecute - but I never received one

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[wobbly]

I have been on 3 jury,s sinkinghelp,I would say its your best option because unless you have uncontravertable evidence magistrates just take the prosecuters word and convict,whereas a jury looks at the evidence or should do.I was also on your side of a jury some 20 odd years ago and they saw right through the prosecution,s case and I won 12-0.

[sinkinghelp]

Hello wobbly

 

Thanks for the reply

 

I am hoping that the crown court system will be better than the local hang em and flog em magistrates we have locally

 

I am also suprised the Crown Prosecution Service were not the prosecution today but a private solicitor on behalf of the council

 

thanks again

 

sinkinghelp

[sinkinghelp]

Hello folks

 

I have tried to gain some information from the DWP

 

I telephone my local jobcentre plus and also the Debt Management Centre at Mitcheldean

 

The staff were polite but both stated that with the limited information on the screen they had no information they could reveal as to why if I should or should not have been notified regarding the intended prosecution

 

I queried the fact that as I am in the Appeal stage of the decision yet they have pushed ahead for prosecution - again they could not answer

 

I also asked as to why the council were paying for a private prosecution and not using the CPS and the reply was the same

 

I expected as much but the staff were polite and suggested that it may be a case of writing in

 

I also challenged taking so much of my Incapacity Benefit and aagin I have to write in with an income and expenditure sheet so that I will get sorted

 

Anyone with any thoughts I would like to hear them

 

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[Zonker]

Who does what in the court

 

A Crown Court:

• normally has a jury - which decides if you’re guilty or not
  
• has a judge - who decides what sentence you get
  

from :

 

https://www.gov.uk/courts/crown-court

 

So not all cases in front of crown court have a jury, but i think fraud is one of the cases where there will be a jury, best check with you legal dude to be safe.

[sinkinghelp]

Hello Zonker

 

Thanks for your reply

 

Its the why did the council opt for a private prosecution as opossed to the CPS and why the DWP never told me anything about the prosecution

 

I just cant seem to find an answer at the moment

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[Zonker]

http://www.cambridge.gov.uk/ccm/content/benefits-and-council-tax/housing-benefit/overpayments.en

 

'Housing Benefit overpayments are a civil debt for which we can sue in the county or high court.'

 

Quote taken from cambridge council website. Hence no CPS involvement.

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/local-authority-staff/housing-benefit/claims-processing/operational-manuals/overpayments-guide/

[sinkinghelp]

Hello zonker

 

Thanks for the reply all good stuff.

 

However the council issued a magistrates summons to be dealt with by way of a criminal prosecution

 

So I would have expected because the council have included the DWP interest a CPS prosecutor and not a local solicitor

 

thanks for the reply though

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[kk3852]

Hi Sinking, Although I cant comment on why the DWP didn't summons you (because I dont know - not because I am hiding anything) it depends on who the lead organisation is.

The LA's that I am aware of have their own legal teams and solicitors who work for the council. They take the lead in magistrates in prosecuting cases. The DWP used to have their own but have recently merged with CPS.

 

When the DWP were the prosecuting authority they employed a local agent solicitor to prosecute on their behalf. Now that they are CPS, the DWP work is ringfenced and part of their duties is indeed to prosecute cases at Court. That does not mean that they are able to attend each Court and when they are not able to so they will still send a local agent solicitor to act on behalf of the CPS.

 

I wouldn't draw much inference from the appearance of a local solicitor as he could just be 'subcontracted' to work for the CPS or the LA

[sinkinghelp]

Hello

 

Many thanks for the reply and it makes sense to me which goes someway to answering my questions

 

As I am alleged to owe more to the DWP than the council I would have expected to receive documentation from DWP for prosecution but the summons was issued by the council and no where on it did it say DWP

 

I am still following the Appeal procedure with the council and DWP

 

My earlier posts regarding the telephone calls explain a bit more

 

It through my solicitor as well what happened in court

 

As time move towards the Crown Court next year I will hopefully get to grip on what is happening

 

thanks again for the reply

 

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[wobbly]

Hi Sinking,they will also have to give your solicitor all the evidence against you ,so you will have a better idea as to how you stand.

[sinkinghelp]

Hello wobbly

 

Thanks for the reply

 

Indeed you are quite right there - will have to wait and see

 

Its a waiting game at the moment

 

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[Zonker]

From what i have understood so far, the council have been the driving force so far to get to court. Magistrates court would have been the court of choice for them. I think the council now have to go back and consider wether ther relatively small sum (you say about £2000, i think) justifies the expenses involved. I would imagine that there will now be a lot of talking by the council with the DWP to get them to take the lead from now and limit their costs. I realise that DWP are owed more, but you are paying that back already with most of your IB. Not sure if DWP wanted to go to court in the first place and not sure they would want to as they are getting money of you. I thought that would look bad in court.

 

I realise all this is alledged amounts , as you have said about this pension didnt matter according to the benfits agency at the time of applying.

[jadeybags]

Not sure if DWP wanted to go to court in the first place and not sure they would want to as they are getting money of you. I thought that would look bad in court.

 

They certainly would wan it to go to court for 13k! Even if the full over payment had been paid back a year ago I expect. It doesn't look bad in court at all. If they didn't prosecute just because people paid it back, people would risk claiming fraudulantly all the time & look on it as an interest free loan?

I'm more surprised the LA wanted to prosecute if the amount is down to 500, but it's not unheard of.

 

So sorry to hear it's still going on over a year later now sinkinghelp. I think you could be right about going to crown court, I would probably want the same. It's a shame there is no record of phone calls. Although I wonder if sometimes there is, pretty sure my council knew exactly what I was talking about when I said a guy in their dept told me something over the phone. The woman interviewing me under caution asked if I remember his name, but I don't remember what time I am supposed to be places these days let along 2 years ago. And I would never have thought to ask him at the time anyway. And they didn't take any further action with me.

Your best bet in that case would be a jury, it will be a case of convincing them this DWP employer told you that.

They do make mistakes, a friend of mine was NOT told by someone at DWP he could only keep proceeds of the sale of his house for 6 months whilst looking for another & at the 11th hour they found proof that he had let them know about this money, he opted for crown court like you, & I forget all the details & haven't spoken to him for a while but I am pretty sure it got thrown out of court.

His housing benefit over payment was reduced from 11k to under 1k I think because of him pushing for months to get them to accept that he would have had to use some of that money to pay full rent etc & support him & a child, which would have put him under the threshold for savings within a month, which would have had him back on IS which would have passported him to full housing benefit.

Sorry that was all a bit long winded wasn't it!

Just should have said really, if you are not guilty, fight all the way. It's exausting though i'm sure. You're stronger than you ever thought though ey!

[sinkinghelp]

Hello Zonker

 

Thanks for the reply

 

Absolutely correct with your reply. However in court the council prosecuter gave the council figure of just under £2,900 and the DWP amount of £14,000

 

However I do not owe the Council anything. After getting the Ombudsman involved there was some re calculation and that reduced and a friend paid the rest off so I owe them nothing

 

The DWP are indeed taking their repayments

 

I have been told that for the CPS to run there must be an 80% chance of conviction so this may be another reason the council paid for a private prosecution

 

thanks again

 

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[sinkinghelp]

Hello jadeybags

 

Again quite right in what you say. However posting on here has been a lifeline really. I have been so low because I was unsure of the way the systems work. Also the council have been evil. Because I refused to roll over from the beginning and bringing in the Ombudsman did not go down well at all. The council have been obstructive in everything they have done

 

The council will be begging the DWP to take the lead now I have no doubt as the cost for Crown Court will he huge looking at some court reports

 

What I have discovered along the way is that a conviction for fraud of any kind has a huge impact in other matters such as house and car insurance but that is to be researched later

 

I do take some strength from everyone who posts and I hope although this thread is long others have managed to gain some information

 

 

thanks

 

sinkinghelp

[sinkinghelp]

Hello all

 

Forgot to add that I was granted Unconditional Bail until the actual date of hearing next year

 

 

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[sinkinghelp]

Hello all

 

Just been looking through my Courts and Tribunal Service paperwork which is 10 days time.

 

My Appeal which I made in July against the council is just being heard cant get Legal Aid and the local welfare rights have no one available plus the CAB cant help either

 

This should be interesting especialy as its the council pushing for a criminal conviction as well. They will come represented by a the same solicitor who I met in the magistrates the other day I have no doubt

 

So its on my own for this one !

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[estellyn]

Hello all

 

Just been looking through my Courts and Tribunal Service paperwork which is 10 days time.

 

My Appeal which I made in July against the council is just being heard cant get Legal Aid and the local welfare rights have no one available plus the CAB cant help either

 

This should be interesting especialy as its the council pushing for a criminal conviction as well. They will come represented by a the same solicitor who I met in the magistrates the other day I have no doubt

 

So its on my own for this one !

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

 

Make sure you have your case and arguments stated in writing.

[wobbly]

Strange they have started action against you when your appeal has still to be heard.I hope its got some independance (the appeal panel that is)

[sinkinghelp]

Hello

 

Thanks for the replies

 

I have submitted as per the Tribunals direction everything in writing that I want to try and get across but not being legally trained in all this it is a nightmare

 

I even asked my MP to ask the council to suspend any magistrates fraud action until after the Appeal but basically was told " jog on " we will do as we please ! Tribunal is civil the magistrates is criminal even though I think they are connected got no where with the council

 

Also still have an Appeal pending with DWP which it was such a HUGE shock to find out in Magistrates Court the council were prosecuting that for the DWP

 

I have to leave certain meds off or I cant reason properly when I am trying to put things together

 

thanks for the comments always helpfull as usuall

 

kind regards

 

sinkinghelp

[estellyn]

Hello

 

Thanks for the replies

 

I have submitted as per the Tribunals direction everything in writing that I want to try and get across but not being legally trained in all this it is a nightmare

 

I even asked my MP to ask the council to suspend any magistrates fraud action until after the Appeal but basically was told " jog on " we will do as we please ! Tribunal is civil the magistrates is criminal even though I think they are connected got no where with the council

 

Also still have an Appeal pending with DWP which it was such a HUGE shock to find out in Magistrates Court the council were prosecuting that for the DWP

 

I have to leave certain meds off or I cant reason properly when I am trying to put things together

 

thanks for the comments always helpfull as usuall

 

kind regards

 

sinkinghelp

 

If the DWP and HB tribunal are regarding the same issue, you can ask, in writing, to have them heard at the same time by the same Tribunal.

[sinkinghelp]

Hello estellyn

 

Thank you for the reply that was something else I have just learnt !

 

Sadly because of the way the council have processed my Appeal the DWP Appeal ended up way in front and was dealt with some time ago, which is why I am now waiting for a statement of reason from the Tribunal Judge so that decision can be challenged.

 

 

 

kind regards

 

sinkinghelp

[Stan Lee]

Nick

 

This is something I know zero about, but at a guess, I would wonder if the council would send a criminal solicitor to a civil appeal. I would say: no. I stand to be corrected on this.

 

Also, and again it is only based on the vaguest of impressions, but because civil and criminal matters are separate but linked streams, I was under the impression that it is quite possible for a criminal matter to be heard before a civil matter, which is why it is important to get your appeal in ASAP.

 

Which is academic in your situation, I know. Still, if you have a separate council civil appeal coming up, then it might be worth trying to dissect what went wrong in your previous appeal.