DWP Interview Under Caution

[sinkinghelp]

Hello jen123

 

Thank you for responding to my post and I am indeed touched by the kind words. Well its Friday again and bad days for the post so I shall see what comes.

 

I received yesterday a lot of paperwork from the Tribunal Service which I have got to sit and complete and return within 14 days

 

It is lonely and of considerable stress and humiliation really.

 

But I have to battle on as I know what was I told by the DWP

 

thanks again

 

big hug back to you thanks

 

kind regards

 

sinkinghelp

[sinkinghelp]

Hello All

 

Is there a set format or words that I can consider to use on the statment I have got to send to the Tribunal please

 

I feel this is my last chanceto get my point across.

 

The DWP file I have received they are sending to the Tribunal is some 280 pages long !!!!

 

Mainly DWP copies of documents and pages of pages of legal arguments and legal pleadings and direction

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[confuciused]

Talk about unfairly weighted against you! Can't you get a solicitor to do the work for you under Legal Aid now?

[estellyn]

Hello All

 

Is there a set format or words that I can consider to use on the statment I have got to send to the Tribunal please

 

I feel this is my last chanceto get my point across.

 

The DWP file I have received they are sending to the Tribunal is some 280 pages long !!!!

 

Mainly DWP copies of documents and pages of pages of legal arguments and legal pleadings and direction

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

 

It should just be a simple form you need to return to Tribunals Service now - it asks if you want an oral or paper hearing and if you want an interpreter or can attend at short notice.

 

This gives you time to read the rest of the paperwork, and write a 'submission', which is a statement of your arguments as to why your appeal should be allowed (ie why you should win). Near the front of the pack of paperwork should be the DWP submission, which is their arguments as to why they should win - this is a good starting point.

 

We're here to help, you're not alone.

 

do you have a welfare rights or cab in your area?

[sinkinghelp]

Hello folks

 

I have returned the document to the Tribunal and I have also sat an typed up what I think are pertinent points that seem to have been missed.

 

The copy documents I received from the DWP run to just under 300 pages !!!

 

There were copy documents of all the forms including the errors made on the telephone interviews and pages and pages and pages of law

 

So will have to wait and see now

 

I cant get legal aid yet the solicitor says as I am not on a passport benefit and I have also not been charged with an offence - yet !

 

Waiting for the postman to see what further bad news he brings today

 

thanks for the thoughts and support

 

kind regards

 

sinkinghelp

[estellyn]

Hello folks

 

I have returned the document to the Tribunal and I have also sat an typed up what I think are pertinent points that seem to have been missed.

 

The copy documents I received from the DWP run to just under 300 pages !!!

 

There were copy documents of all the forms including the errors made on the telephone interviews and pages and pages and pages of law

 

So will have to wait and see now

 

I cant get legal aid yet the solicitor says as I am not on a passport benefit and I have also not been charged with an offence - yet !

 

Waiting for the postman to see what further bad news he brings today

 

thanks for the thoughts and support

 

kind regards

 

sinkinghelp

 

The solicitor is not who you need to be talking to about an appeal - you need an experienced welfare rights adviser who can prepare your case. Is there a CAB or Welfare rights near you? You don't always have to qualify for legal aid to get help via welfare rights or cab. You also don't HAVE to be a passported benefit to get legal aid!!

[sinkinghelp]

Hello folks

 

I have already returned the extra stuff I want to say about the DWP - and today the council wrote and told me that they are now also forwarding my Appeal to the Tribunal but it will not stop the prosecution process

 

I will give the welfare rights another shot but there hours have been drastically cut and every time I have been to CAB they just seem to have very little inspiration really

 

They are all so overwhelmed with people all wanting help

 

thanks though for the replies

 

regards

 

sinkinghelp

[sinkinghelp]

Hello folks

 

Well a chink of light - and I did say chink !!!!!

 

The Ombudsman has decided to formally write to my local council and ask for their response to very certain matters regarding the way they have dealt with me.

 

The Ombudsman has explained that they cant become involved in the legal process being followed by the DWP and the council but there is certainly enough for them to get some answers at long last

 

As I said only a chink of light but it was worth involving Ombudsman

 

kind regards

 

sinkinghelp

[sledge9862]

I would not hold out too much hope of a meaningful intervention from anyone. I would prepare for the long haul, trial and I fear, regardless of your defences, (I have not read all threads) a guilty verdict at magistrates because a finding of not guilty in BF cases @ magistrates court, is all-but unheard of and to me the system is nothing less than corrupt.

 

Magistrates take advantage of the fact that benefit claimants have a low social standing and low finances to afford a useful council and I perceived that claiming benefit is tantamount to dishonesty in the eyes of the courts, trust me, I know …

 

I was prosecuted in January because I dared to raise a judicial review against the DWP in respect to their reporting procedures for changes of circumstances. The JR was thrown out as criminal prosecution take precedents. The evidence against me amounted to a DWP assertion that I had not notified via telephone. But their reporting systems are designed not to provide claimants with the proof. I got a terrible legal aid lawyer who was too scared to ask for proper disclosures so I sacked him and represented myself but the court entirely ignored several calls for the DWP to disclose evidence and so I went to trial without the evidence to clear me and I was found guilty on the strength that I did not notify but the district judge then refused to justify 2 counts of benefit fraud in writing, shocking really.

 

I am at the appeal stage at crown but it is not looking that bright here either, they are combined courts now so they watch each others back I suppose. I had a similar dilemma re appeal tribunals but in the end I decided to abandon a tribunal appeal until I had cleared my name which rest assured I will unless I die trying. The problem with tribunals is that you are starting from an assertion that you are a fraudster and that certainly muddy waters for you and so DWP usually win such cases, at least that was the advice I received. Then, not only have you lost an overpayment argument but the DWP hold a negative outcome against you in the criminal prosecution too so better to clear your name at a criminal trial so you win the moral ground at tribunal? If you lose in magistrates and you are not prepared to carry on fighting then I would spare yourself from the wrath of a tribunal.

 

I hope to be found not guilty simply because I am not guilty but I am already maneuvering myself to ensure I can appeal to high court. Certainly I have a better chance at crown because they usually do need evidence unlike magistrates so I live in hope?

 

I intend suing the DWP and possibly the CPS too eventually as this has been a dirty affair which included investigators doctoring forms so check them 300 pages properly! I left teaching a couple of years ago after I had a mental breakdown for want of a better term so I was not well to start with. The capital which I was accused of not disclosing was an inheritance I had received just a few weeks before being hauled in for an IUC. I lost both my parents in 2010 but the DWP do not care, they are ruthless and corrupt and they have taken me to some very dark place over the last 2 years ........ good look but I think you might need it!

[sledge9862]

Perhaps I should add that it does depend on your chances of winning at tribunal .... in my case I took advice and I understood that paying off my mortgage (as I did) was on the face of it, not really allowed, but I decided securing my home for life was more important than means tested benefit over the short term as I start my teachers pension in 2015 and I could last until then (and as I am doing). By the way a paid back all the (arguable) overpayment but they still prosecuted me. I alway intended appealing to a tribunal and given the fact that I am severally disabled (physically) and that I would lose my home in 2017, I hoped for a favourable outcome but it is not straightforward in my case. The DWP said I should put the money in the bank and live on it while paying my mortgage but come 2017 I would not have had the money to pay off the mortgage and I would lose a home adapted for my access, crazy and somewhat unfair for the DWP to expect that I think?

 

As I am sure you understand, if a tribunal say you did not cause an overpayment then you cannot be criminally guilty but I did a lot of research and as I said it can backfire spectacularly. Magistrates are not obliged to wait for the outcome of an tribunal appeal but you can ask them to, in my case they accepted an application by my solicitor to wait post his sacking but on the day I was let down by welfare rights who failed to attend a hearing and my case it was found against me in the absence of a submission. Be careful as there is a conflict of interest using welfare rights as they are housed and funded by the council, the same people responsible for prosecutions. Try to get help from the CAB although I share your concerns regarding the interest they show. They have trainee solicitors who can be good if you can get them on your side, when I taught in college I secured good help from these people for students with problems? I have since had the right to a tribunal appeal reinstated but I prefer to wait until the end of the criminal prosecution for my situation. Incidentally, the prosecution barrister did tell the judge that I had lost my tribunal appeal and the judge made it known that it was held against me, as I say its a old dirty business.

 

This is not what you want to here at the moment, trust me, I am only too aware but I wish someone had wised me up and prepared me better for the rough ride ahead. Finally I will say that you too seem to have found a perplexity to write probably hundreds of pages to anyone who will listen but my advice is it will end up to be counter productive. I wrote letter after letter to ombudsman, MP's, the council, councillors and eventually their dogs but in the end you realise know-body is really listening and so that process itself makes you unwell. Even the courts and CPS will not reply to perfectly valid questions and requests, trust me and try to spare yourself the indignity and mental anguish it will surely eventually bring you!

 

If there is anything useful I can help you with just let me know and kind regards to you.

[estellyn]

Please explain how the tribunal can backfire?

 

Always try to get a tribunal decision before a criminal decision.

[sledge9862]

A final point to consider .... I found tribunals to be similar to criminal courts in as mush as level 1 tribunals are not too good at getting decisions legally right and they tend to decide on emotions rather than justice. I lost a tribunal 3 years ago when I came onto benefit .... I knew the decision was flawed so I appealed an appeal and won at tier 2 but that took best part of 18 months and the criminal courts will simply not wait that long so it throws up more problems. They may wait for a level 1, in fact the DWP might gladly approve it as they realise those odds are stacked in their favour, but they will not wait another 7 months for a re-appeal and so an appeal decision might be unfairly or wrongly held against you at magistrates .... you can of course appeal to crown on the strength that you are waiting on a tribunal tier 2 decision but you have to balance costs. I was fined £200 + £700 cost at magistrates but I am facing a further £2000 if I lose at crown and a further £5000 if I take it to high court and I have almost nothing in the way of savings and I do not even get means tested benefit to live on now. Never-the-less I am prepared to lose my home before I will give in to such intimidations so it is a no brainer. But I am single and so I do not have to consider the opinion of others which may have to be a consideration for you...... Sorry ..... I will try to think of something positive to say but I am not a magician!

[sledge9862]

My point estellyn is that a negative decision at tribunal WILL become a nail in the coffin in the criminal case, it happened to me so that is a fact. That said I realise that it entirely depends on the facts of your case and crucially the probability of you winning. That is why I took the time to explain that I do not have that strong a case at tribunal. My feelings are that when I overturn the criminal conviction (which I will) then I think I stand a good chance at tribunal but even then probably at tier 2? I agree that in most cases it will probably be the right decision to hear your tribunal case first but it is simply not the case that it is always the wisest choice!

[Stan Lee]

SinkingHelp, I agree with estellyn (who has serious experience in the area and has shown great expertise on this forum): try and seek specialist advice from Welfare Rights if you can. It may be a hassle, but it is an avenue worth exploring with a specialist.

[sinkinghelp]

Hello everyone

 

SO many THANKS for the replies I have to be honest been keeping away from here and the internet as I am driving myself to even darker dispair reading stuff and as said above the whole system is to me designed and exploited by the DWP and Council legal systems in favour of them

 

I am just waiting to see what comes in the next post really

 

The Tribunal wont take long before its heard as I have opted not to go. I just could not cope with attending really

 

I do look forward to all your comments so please any help you can think of I would very much like to hear from you

 

kind regards

 

sinkinghelp

[estellyn]

My point estellyn is that a negative decision at tribunal WILL become a nail in the coffin in the criminal case, it happened to me so that is a fact. That said I realise that it entirely depends on the facts of your case and crucially the probability of you winning. That is why I took the time to explain that I do not have that strong a case at tribunal. My feelings are that when I overturn the criminal conviction (which I will) then I think I stand a good chance at tribunal but even then probably at tier 2? I agree that in most cases it will probably be the right decision to hear your tribunal case first but it is simply not the case that it is always the wisest choice!

 

Sorry sledge, the results of a criminal case have no bearing on a Tribunal. Also the absolute time limit for appealling is 13 months from the initial decision. A negative result at Tribunal loses you nothing at all in a criminal case - its just confirming the original decision.

[Lillibelle]

How much does the pension in question pay you per month? It's probably in the thread but is quicker to ask

[sledge9862]

Sorry sledge, the results of a criminal case have no bearing on a Tribunal. Also the absolute time limit for appealling is 13 months from the initial decision. A negative result at Tribunal loses you nothing at all in a criminal case - its just confirming the original decision.

 

Procedurally you are absolutely right again but you seem to see the world with rose tinted spectacles in so much as to whether a tribunal might at the very least, subconsciously, treat someone less favourably if there is a notion of dishonesty involved in the case ....... why precisely do the DWP bother to provide the grounds of fraud in a submission to a tribunal when the facts are not under consideration .... muddy waters .....

[estellyn]

Procedurally you are absolutely right again but you seem to see the world with rose tinted spectacles in so much as to whether a tribunal might at the very least, subconsciously, treat someone less favourably if there is a notion of dishonesty involved in the case ....... why precisely do the DWP bother to provide the grounds of fraud in a submission to a tribunal when the facts are not under consideration .... muddy waters .....

 

OK. This is how it works. The Tribunal hearing is to decide whether the benefit overpayment is lawful or not. They get lots and lots of overpayment cases to hear that have had IUC's with prosecution pending. If the Tribunal decides, based on facts of law that there is no overpayment - ie the law has been misapplied by the DWP, LA or HMRC (which happens quite a lot), then there is no criminal case, because no fraud has been committed. When you say you don't have a good case at Tribunal - is this bacause there is obvious guilt, or because innocence is difficult to prove? Overpayments can be caused in many different ways, and not all overpayments are fraud, but all frauds produce overpayments. Tribunal judges see plenty of cases with pending prosecution where they find, that in fact no overpayment or fraud has occured.

 

I don't see the world through 'rose tinted spectacles', but with the experience of 1000's of benefit cases and 100's of appeals. Tribunal judges look at the law involved and decide based on law - if they decide on anything else, then it is an error of law and their decision can be overturned by the upper tier Tribunal.

[confuciused]

sledge9862, your judicial review argument sounds interesting, could you elaborate on what the skeleton of your argument was? and are you going to be using the same argument in the overpayment appeal? If you could get a precedent in this area, it would help a lot of people, including sinkinghelp!! love your fighting spirit!!

[sinkinghelp]

Hello folks

 

MANY thanks for the help. I have received a reply from the DWP Appeal I submitted to be consiidered and the jusdge said in his report

" It was inherently Unlikely that I declared my pension "

 

and dismissed my Appeal

 

I have written to the Courts Service for a statment of Reason from the judge so I can hopefully find someone to go through it with me to see if I can further appeal

 

The Council are still plotting their submission to the courts service

 

The DWP want just under £14,000 from a six year period and the Council overpayment was just under £3,000 reduced by a friend to £500

 

The Council still intend to prosecute

The DWP still intend to prosecute

 

I am perhaps looking at custody if any of the internet reports I read are correct

 

So please keep posting someone may come along and be able to help. I am in Nottinghamshire by the way

 

kind regards

 

 

sinkinghelp......................................and sinking very quickly

[sadone]

I'm so sorry to hear all this. In the grand scheme of things £14,000 isn't the biggest overpayment amount that I've seen, and I doubt If they would imprison you for that.

[sinkinghelp]

Hello sadone

 

Thanks so much for the reply

 

With the way my luck is going anything possible !

 

I was lucky enough to be employed from 1973 to 2006 when serious illness struck.

 

Anyway as and when I get more information I will update the thread. IF anyone has any bits of law or anything that may help I would be gratefull if you posted up !

 

kind regards

 

 

sinkinghelp

[Nystagmite]

Does the judge have proof that it was unlikely you declared your pension?

[sinkinghelp]

Hi Nystagmite

 

The Judge said " Inherently Unlikely"

 

but as the HMRC and Court were made aware I did does go a little towards that I did not deliberatly mislead anyone or had any intention. 2006 to 2008 I really was reliant on professional help and the DWP person has really let me down. As there was no need to I did did not disclose

 

Then when the annual forms that I should have declared I didnt because I was told I did not have to. I suppose that is the proof

 

I will have to wait for the statement of reason from the Judge.

 

It would not happen now - but who else has been let down in this way according to DWP none if very few no such records exist I bet they dont !

 

 

thanks

 

sinkinghelp