Procedurally you are absolutely right again but you seem to see the world with rose tinted spectacles in so much as to whether a tribunal might at the very least, subconsciously, treat someone less favourably if there is a notion of dishonesty involved in the case ....... why precisely do the DWP bother to provide the grounds of fraud in a submission to a tribunal when the facts are not under consideration .... muddy waters .....

My point estellyn is that a negative decision at tribunal WILL become a nail in the coffin in the criminal case, it happened to me so that is a fact. That said I realise that it entirely depends on the facts of your case and crucially the probability of you winning. That is why I took the time to explain that I do not have that strong a case at tribunal. My feelings are that when I overturn the criminal conviction (which I will) then I think I stand a good chance at tribunal but even then probably at tier 2? I agree that in most cases it will probably be the right decision to hear your tribunal case first but it is simply not the case that it is always the wisest choice!

A final point to consider .... I found tribunals to be similar to criminal courts in as mush as level 1 tribunals are not too good at getting decisions legally right and they tend to decide on emotions rather than justice. I lost a tribunal 3 years ago when I came onto benefit .... I knew the decision was flawed so I appealed an appeal and won at tier 2 but that took best part of 18 months and the criminal courts will simply not wait that long so it throws up more problems. They may wait for a level 1, in fact the DWP might gladly approve it as they realise those odds are stacked in their favour, but they will not wait another 7 months for a re-appeal and so an appeal decision might be unfairly or wrongly held against you at magistrates .... you can of course appeal to crown on the strength that you are waiting on a tribunal tier 2 decision but you have to balance costs. I was fined £200 + £700 cost at magistrates but I am facing a further £2000 if I lose at crown and a further £5000 if I take it to high court and I have almost nothing in the way of savings and I do not even get means tested benefit to live on now. Never-the-less I am prepared to lose my home before I will give in to such intimidations so it is a no brainer. But I am single and so I do not have to consider the opinion of others which may have to be a consideration for you...... Sorry ..... I will try to think of something positive to say but I am not a magician!

Perhaps I should add that it does depend on your chances of winning at tribunal .... in my case I took advice and I understood that paying off my mortgage (as I did) was on the face of it, not really allowed, but I decided securing my home for life was more important than means tested benefit over the short term as I start my teachers pension in 2015 and I could last until then (and as I am doing). By the way a paid back all the (arguable) overpayment but they still prosecuted me. I alway intended appealing to a tribunal and given the fact that I am severally disabled (physically) and that I would lose my home in 2017, I hoped for a favourable outcome but it is not straightforward in my case. The DWP said I should put the money in the bank and live on it while paying my mortgage but come 2017 I would not have had the money to pay off the mortgage and I would lose a home adapted for my access, crazy and somewhat unfair for the DWP to expect that I think? As I am sure you understand, if a tribunal say you did not cause an overpayment then you cannot be criminally guilty but I did a lot of research and as I said it can backfire spectacularly. Magistrates are not obliged to wait for the outcome of an tribunal appeal but you can ask them to, in my case they accepted an application by my solicitor to wait post his sacking but on the day I was let down by welfare rights who failed to attend a hearing and my case it was found against me in the absence of a submission. Be careful as there is a conflict of interest using welfare rights as they are housed and funded by the council, the same people responsible for prosecutions. Try to get help from the CAB although I share your concerns regarding the interest they show. They have trainee solicitors who can be good if you can get them on your side, when I taught in college I secured good help from these people for students with problems? I have since had the right to a tribunal appeal reinstated but I prefer to wait until the end of the criminal prosecution for my situation. Incidentally, the prosecution barrister did tell the judge that I had lost my tribunal appeal and the judge made it known that it was held against me, as I say its a old dirty business. This is not what you want to here at the moment, trust me, I am only too aware but I wish someone had wised me up and prepared me better for the rough ride ahead. Finally I will say that you too seem to have found a perplexity to write probably hundreds of pages to anyone who will listen but my advice is it will end up to be counter productive. I wrote letter after letter to ombudsman, MP's, the council, councillors and eventually their dogs but in the end you realise know-body is really listening and so that process itself makes you unwell. Even the courts and CPS will not reply to perfectly valid questions and requests, trust me and try to spare yourself the indignity and mental anguish it will surely eventually bring you! If there is anything useful I can help you with just let me know and kind regards to you.

I would not hold out too much hope of a meaningful intervention from anyone. I would prepare for the long haul, trial and I fear, regardless of your defences, (I have not read all threads) a guilty verdict at magistrates because a finding of not guilty in BF cases @ magistrates court, is all-but unheard of and to me the system is nothing less than corrupt. Magistrates take advantage of the fact that benefit claimants have a low social standing and low finances to afford a useful council and I perceived that claiming benefit is tantamount to dishonesty in the eyes of the courts, trust me, I know … I was prosecuted in January because I dared to raise a judicial review against the DWP in respect to their reporting procedures for changes of circumstances. The JR was thrown out as criminal prosecution take precedents. The evidence against me amounted to a DWP assertion that I had not notified via telephone. But their reporting systems are designed not to provide claimants with the proof. I got a terrible legal aid lawyer who was too scared to ask for proper disclosures so I sacked him and represented myself but the court entirely ignored several calls for the DWP to disclose evidence and so I went to trial without the evidence to clear me and I was found guilty on the strength that I did not notify but the district judge then refused to justify 2 counts of benefit fraud in writing, shocking really. I am at the appeal stage at crown but it is not looking that bright here either, they are combined courts now so they watch each others back I suppose. I had a similar dilemma re appeal tribunals but in the end I decided to abandon a tribunal appeal until I had cleared my name which rest assured I will unless I die trying. The problem with tribunals is that you are starting from an assertion that you are a fraudster and that certainly muddy waters for you and so DWP usually win such cases, at least that was the advice I received. Then, not only have you lost an overpayment argument but the DWP hold a negative outcome against you in the criminal prosecution too so better to clear your name at a criminal trial so you win the moral ground at tribunal? If you lose in magistrates and you are not prepared to carry on fighting then I would spare yourself from the wrath of a tribunal. I hope to be found not guilty simply because I am not guilty but I am already maneuvering myself to ensure I can appeal to high court. Certainly I have a better chance at crown because they usually do need evidence unlike magistrates so I live in hope? I intend suing the DWP and possibly the CPS too eventually as this has been a dirty affair which included investigators doctoring forms so check them 300 pages properly! I left teaching a couple of years ago after I had a mental breakdown for want of a better term so I was not well to start with. The capital which I was accused of not disclosing was an inheritance I had received just a few weeks before being hauled in for an IUC. I lost both my parents in 2010 but the DWP do not care, they are ruthless and corrupt and they have taken me to some very dark place over the last 2 years ........ good look but I think you might need it!