Cap1 & CCA return

[un1boy]

Hello Pam...I am claiming my charges back, and (guess what)..PPI as well:))) but i had paid it in full and closed so i couldn't spend more on the card-selfprotection))

xxxx

 

Hi itsme,

 

Just so you know, they don't have to comply with a sec 78 request if the account is closed - although, I would have thought that they would have to provide the agreement as part of a CPA request!

[InKogneeToh]

Hello Pam...I am claiming my charges back, and (guess what)..PPI as well:))) but i had paid it in full and closed so i couldn't spend more on the card-selfprotection))

xxxx

Hi

 

If it's charges you are claiming then you don't need the copy agreement for those, you need the statements and will probably have to SAR them.

 

For PPI, you do need to see if you ticked a box on the agreement for it, or if any details of PPI are entered on it. If they cannot supply a legible copy of the agreement/application form then how can they prove that you agreed to PPI?

 

Regards, Pam

[paulwlton]

You are right

 

But, not according to TS!!

 

They are shameful - my caseworker said that he would ask the lender IF they had to supply certain docs and because they said no, he has accepted that!

 

Also, my request was made in August 2006 to which they sent me an agreement with no prescribed terms only, no T&C's etc. The TS worker has asked them to supply the T&C's now and told me that I can go into any branch to get them!!!!

 

He has also said that becausae i didn't specifically ask for a statement of account, they don't have to provide one (I did ask for one, and I also said that this is a full request under sec 78)

 

What tha fa?

 

Trading Standards are a joke.

[Struggling_Simon]

There will be a big bang there's no doubt about it.The way that I see it the fuse has already been lit.If you go back into history there is the infamous "peasents revolt" what we are getting now is the "consumers revolt"

 

 

I take real offence to being called a revolting consumer.

 

[TANZARELLI]

Not sure if you will be able to see these or if they have attached proerly but it someone could let me know if they think the are executed properly I would appreciate it.

 

Tanz

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

Yes you are right - the prescribed terms must also be correct (as must any other financial terms) but APR is not a 'prescribed term'. Also it is very complicated to work out and I wouldn't have a clue how to tell whether a quoted figure is correct or not.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Hi Pam, is quite right of course the APR is not a prescribed term although if they have quoted you an incorect one i think you can claim unenforceability under Section 127 (1)

 

(i) prejudice caused to any person by the contravention in question, and the degree of culpability for it;

 

In other words you baught the product under a missleading quotation of apr i think the same can be made to aply if their is no apr quoted.

I am fairly sure of my ground on the last bit but would appretiate some other input.

 

Regards

Peter

[itsmeandonlyme]

Hi

 

If it's charges you are claiming then you don't need the copy agreement for those, you need the statements and will probably have to S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them.

 

For PPI, you do need to see if you ticked a box on the agreement for it, or if any details of PPI are entered on it. If they cannot supply a legible copy of the agreement/application form then how can they prove that you agreed to PPI?

 

Regards, Pam

Hi Pam, thank you again...as always:)))

The only reason why i need that copy of the agreement is to prove that the PPi was mis-sold if it gets to the court..same story...different company...in store they did tell me same things(when i filled the application)- ticking the protection box on the application will speed up and help with the application...so i did tick it....now they are more than happy to refund the charges(not all of them and not CI) but not the PPI....I am arguing that i never received an agreement, a bit worried on the subject that in some cases the application can be an agreement...i can hardly read the copy provided, if i scan it or photocopy it....it became unreadeble at all with 20/20 vision:)))))))))))

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Maria

[un1boy]

Hi Pam, thank you again...as always:)))

The only reason why i need that copy of the agreement is to prove that the PPi was mis-sold if it gets to the court..same story...different company...in store they did tell me same things(when i filled the application)- ticking the protection box on the application will speed up and help with the application...so i did tick it....now they are more than happy to refund the charges(not all of them and not CI) but not the PPI....I am arguing that i never received an agreement, a bit worried on the subject that in some cases the application can be an agreement...i can hardly read the copy provided, if i scan it or photocopy it....it became unreadeble at all with 20/20 vision:)))))))))))

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Maria

 

 

Maria, don't worry, an application cannot class as an agreement!

 

Also, if the one they sent you cannot be read then it is not enforcable!

[InKogneeToh]

Hi Pam, is quite right of course the APR is not a prescribed term although if they have quoted you an incorect one i think you can claim unenforceability under Section 127 (1)

 

(i) prejudice caused to any person by the contravention in question, and the degree of culpability for it;

 

In other words you baught the product under a missleading quotation of apr i think the same can be made to aply if their is no apr quoted.

I am fairly sure of my ground on the last bit but would appretiate some other input.

 

Regards

Peter

 

Hi

 

You could not claim that the agreement was unenforceable, only 'improperly executed'. The judge would then have to look at what prejudice was caused as a result of the error.

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Maria, don't worry, an application cannot class as an agreement!

 

Also, if the one they sent you cannot be read then it is not enforcable!

 

Hi

 

S127(3) CCA

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

So ANY document that contains all of the prescribed terms and is signed by the debtor(doesn't mention creditor's sig.!) could be enforceable.

 

But you are right about the legibility. The creditor has not properly complied with his obligations under s77/78 if the document is not 'easily legible'.

Regards, Pam

[davey77]

Hiya - got another CCA back from HFC this time. Could you folks have a browse please. I am still unsure whether it's ok or not. It seems to be just the application rather than the aggreement itself? D

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/57846-debt-written-off-due-4.html

[un1boy]

Hi

 

S127(3) CCA

 

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

So ANY document that contains all of the prescribed terms and is signed by the debtor(doesn't mention creditor's sig.!) could be enforceable.

 

But you are right about the legibility. The creditor has not properly complied with his obligations under s77/78 if the document is not 'easily legible'.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Ah right, my bad!

 

I thought Peter had a letter from the DTI stating explicityly that a application could not be classed as an agreement though?

[Peterbard]

Ah right, my bad!

 

I thought Peter had a letter from the DTI stating explicityly that a application could not be classed as an agreement though?

 

Hi

 

I certainly did i have posted it several times it says " a court would never accept an aplication as an agreement".

 

But thats just the DTI This is Pam so now i am in two minds

 

 

Regs Peter

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

I can't remember if he has or not but the OFT doc 2003 on cancellable agreements has this paragraph in the section relating to copies that must be given when an agreement is first entered into:

 

The general requirement for copy documents is that one copy of the agreement (including, if applicable, a notice of cancellation rights) must be given or sent to the customer when the original agreement is given or sent to him for signature. A first copy is not required where the agreement is neither presented personally nor sent to the customer for signature – for example, a document which is also an application form that a prospective customer picks up from a shop counter or from a leaflet dispenser.

 

So I just urge caution in assuming that an application form cannot be an agreement!

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

 

But thats just the DTI This is Pam so now i am in two minds

 

 

 

You looking for a fight?? :D:lol:

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

S127(3) CCA

 

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

So ANY document that contains all of the prescribed terms and is signed by the debtor(doesn't mention creditor's sig.!) could be enforceable.

 

But you are right about the legibility. The creditor has not properly complied with his obligations under s77/78 if the document is not 'easily legible'.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Hi Pam

I think you underlined the wrong bit so i corrected it for you you see it is called signing of agrements not signing of application forms.

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

HI

 

No

Cowardice runs in our familly.

 

Regards

Petr

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

You could not claim that the agreement was unenforceable, only 'improperly executed'. The judge would then have to look at what prejudice was caused as a result of the error.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Oh Pammmmm

 

The court could dismiss an enforcement order then it's the same thing.

You sure you don't want to go back to the other thread:)

 

By the way do tou remember the Monty Python song i think it went,

 

Pam,pam,Pam,Pam...Pam,Pam,Pam,Pam. or something like that

 

Regs

Petr

[Peterbard]

Apr has to be calculated from something. usually a base rate something like

"fantastic loan" @10% (APR 12.5%) etc...or have I got it wrong again

I have an agreement where both are visible mind you the rate may be variable which could explain it

 

dave

 

Hi Dave

 

Hi

A loan of 1% per month gives an apr of 12.68%

 

The ellements for calculating the APR are:

Present Amount (the sum borrowed)

Amount of a single repayment

Elapsed time since the start of the loan at which this repayment is made.

 

Amount loaned= installment/(1+APR)Raised to the power of the interval between talking the loan out and that particular payment.i e1/12 for the first month 2/12 for the second month etc

(You then add up all the individual equasions to give you your amount financed)

Simple

 

Heh Heh

Peter

Peter

[un1boy]

Hi Dave

 

Hi

A loan of 1% per month gives an apr of 12.68%

 

The ellements for calculating the APR are:

 

Present Amount (the sum borrowed)

Amount of a single repayment

Elapsed time since the start of the loan at which this repayment is made.

 

Amount loaned= installment/(1+APR)Raised to the power of the interval between talking the loan out and that particular payment.i e1/12 for the first month 2/12 for the second month etc

(You then add up all the individual equasions to give you your amount financed)

Simple

 

Heh Heh

Peter

Peter

 

Wow Peter, I didn't know you could speak Japanese!

[Peterbard]

"Wow Peter, I didn't know you could speak Japanese! :wink:"

 

Hi

Alternatively you could just google the APR calculator

 

Peter

[InKogneeToh]

By the way do tou remember the Monty Python song i think it went,

 

Pam,pam,Pam,Pam...Pam,Pam,Pam,Pam. or something like that

 

Regs

Petr

 

Your spelling never has been very good has it Peter?

 

That reminds me, I haven't had any for years - must get some, nice fried in batter with chips!! :grin:

 

Oh yes! that thread - the one where we CAN have an occasional joke!!

[davefirewalker]

Peter

you are in fine form today.......

 

 

Dave

[InKogneeToh]

Don't encourage him!!! :D

[un1boy]

Peter

you are in fine form today.......

 

 

Dave

 

I know, I had noticed that as well!