Cap1 & CCA return

[Peterbard]

OK now for the "HOLY GRAIL" question

 

how can i get a copy of the 1983 regulations ?

 

Hi

 

Apparently you can buy a copy i believe it costs about £7 i don't know of any one who has found a free orriginal copy on line and i have looked.

I have a copy of the 1983/1557 Copy of agreement regs which contaqin the notorious sectio3 regulation that enables crditors to leave off sigs on coppies but to get the agreement regs 1983/1553 i had to go to the library and do a photo copy.

I will gladly send you what i have if you let me have your e-mail address or perhaps one of the people on here that have bought a copy on line will have pitty on us.

 

Regards

Peter

[angry cat]

Hi Guy's!

 

I feel somewhat disgruntled after my long phone discussion with TS-

You have to bear in mind that I have been battling with them for some considerable time (like many of us)

MS do not have a copy of my Agreement, they stated such in their defence of the county court claim that I issued against them in May of last year...well they said that they couldn't find it!? Naughty MS, you know that you cannot go into court if your hiding an important fact; meaning that you do not have a copy of the agreement. Anyhow it didn't get to court as they settled, after a fight and removed the Unlawful default from my CRA file.

 

I believe that there is also another issue here, in that MS hounded/harassed me with three debt collectors at the same time and...without a copy of the Agreement??? Could that be an offence under The Administration of Justice Act S40. Could a creditor be vicariously liable for an act of harassment committed by a debt collection agency? MS most certainly 'put the brakes on hard' when I reminded them that I was in dispute but yet they has set their debt collectors on me.

 

I notice that other CAG members are unable to obtain online the Consumer Credit 1983 regs (Cancellation Notices & Copies of Documents)

Pleas would some kind soul post the notorious reg 3 plus reg. 7

MS have the view that they have complied due to reg 3 and yet...

TS have a differing opinion due to reg 7

 

So where am I, well it feels as though TS are treating this akin to a court room:-

MS have one view

TS has another and because of the difference of opinion, I am now informed that it is civil, because TS state that there is no case law regarding such an offence. However, a legislative Criminal Offence has been committed!

 

MS are hiding in the long grass, I await a communication from them setting out their interpretation, but will they put pen to paper, if they do, it will be waffle.

 

I am not a happy bunny tonight.

Battleaxe, I have no idea on earth what I could or should state on an N1 POC (that is in a legalistic manner)

 

I am off to dig the garden...Grrrrr

 

Love AC

[un1boy]

Hi Pam

 

8 After paragraph 22 insert -

 

• Cancellation rights23.Agreements which are not cancellable agreements.A statement that the agreement is not cancellable

1482 Agreement ammendments Will you come down and sign or shalli just accept another plaque.

 

Hah

Peter

 

So, does this mean that if a non cancellable agreement doesn't mention it is non cancellable then it cannot be enforced? (even at court?)

[ian1969uk]

Regarding Section 85, I want to crank up the pressure on several credit card providers by sending them a S85 default notice. However, the cards I have were all reissued quite recently (within the last 12 months or so). The accounts have been open for between 6 and 9 years, so there must have been an earlier reissue of these cards.

 

How do I go about finding out when the first card reissue was? I am guessing that this would be the date the default was effective from.

 

I have done the SAR/DPA requests re: charges but this doesn't state when cards were reissued.

 

Any ideas?

[The Lantana]

Regarding Section 85, I want to crank up the pressure on several credit card providers by sending them a S85 default notice. However, the cards I have were all reissued quite recently (within the last 12 months or so). The accounts have been open for between 6 and 9 years, so there must have been an earlier reissue of these cards.

 

How do I go about finding out when the first card reissue was? I am guessing that this would be the date the default was effective from.

 

I have done the SAR/DPA requests re: charges but this doesn't state when cards were reissued.

 

Any ideas?

 

ian, In the absence of any information from the CCP's regarding reissue dates you could work back from the dates on your current cards, e.g if your current cards are valid for 2 years it is perhaps reasonable to assume all the previous cards issued were for a period of 2 years also.

 

Invite them to demonstrate otherwise.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[ian1969uk]

Thanks, good idea.

[un1boy]

Thanks, good idea.

 

My agreement is unenforcable, so I've gone back to the start with mine!!

[The Lantana]

Hi Guy's!

 

I feel somewhat disgruntled after my long phone discussion with TS-

You have to bear in mind that I have been battling with them for some considerable time (like many of us)

MS do not have a copy of my Agreement, they stated such in their defence of the county court claim that I issued against them in May of last year...well they said that they couldn't find it!? Naughty MS, you know that you cannot go into court if your hiding an important fact; meaning that you do not have a copy of the agreement. Anyhow it didn't get to court as they settled, after a fight and removed the Unlawful default from my CRA file.

 

I believe that there is also another issue here, in that MS hounded/harassed me with three debt collectors at the same time and...without a copy of the Agreement??? Could that be an offence under The Administration of Justice Act S40. Could a creditor be vicariously liable for an act of harassment committed by a debt collection agency? MS most certainly 'put the brakes on hard' when I reminded them that I was in dispute but yet they has set their debt collectors on me.

 

I notice that other CAG members are unable to obtain online the Consumer Credit 1983 regs (Cancellation Notices & Copies of Documents)

Pleas would some kind soul post the notorious reg 3 plus reg. 7

MS have the view that they have complied due to reg 3 and yet...

TS have a differing opinion due to reg 7

 

So where am I, well it feels as though TS are treating this akin to a court room:-

MS have one view

TS has another and because of the difference of opinion, I am now informed that it is civil, because TS state that there is no case law regarding such an offence. However, a legislative Criminal Offence has been committed!

 

MS are hiding in the long grass, I await a communication from them setting out their interpretation, but will they put pen to paper, if they do, it will be waffle.

 

I am not a happy bunny tonight.

Battleaxe, I have no idea on earth what I could or should state on an N1 POC (that is in a legalistic manner)

 

I am off to dig the garden...Grrrrr

 

Love AC

 

AC, if you really are that hacked off you could consider a private prosecution. BBC (through their agents) do this all the time against errant licence fee payers. I haven't done this myself but I gather you approach the magistrates court and seek a summons against the alleged offender. At the time of the application you would (I presume) have to put a case before the magistrate before they would agree to the summons.

 

I have a case on the go against MBNA at the moment and I'm seriously considering this step if it comes to it.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[tamadus]

There is an interesting (if minor) point that has come up on this thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/74700-dca-turning-nasty-3.html

 

from post 41. It's about the deadlines of 12 working days plus 1 month. Does anyone know the correct interpretation?

 

Just to further clarify this.

 

The default starts at close of business on the 12th day after receipt. I say this because it's how the courts etc regard it. Plus it would also work in our favour as it shows how nice and lenient we really are

[ian1969uk]

My agreement is unenforcable, so I've gone back to the start with mine!!

 

Still awaiting some responses to CCA requests, so I'll have to see what they bring. But remember that S85 doesn't apply to the first credit token issue.

[The Phantom]

It's a con trick! Don't sign

 

The 2006 Act is NOT retrospective. Agreements entered into prior to the 2006 Act are still valid as per the 1974 Act

 

I have been told that as from 2008 the new amendments will apply to all agreements, even retrospectively, is that true ? (Quote of advice I got "Older agreements will not be affected until 2008 when the section will finally be repealed.")

In that case I would be worried that a lot of companies will just sit tight even if they are currently in default by not being able to supply the original agreement and then start pursuing as from next year again. Is that a possibility ?

[Peterbard]

So, does this mean that if a non cancellable agreement doesn't mention it is non cancellable then it cannot be enforced? (even at court?)

 

 

NO I wish i did

 

Firstly it only applies to post 2005 agreements.

 

If however we can find exactly the regulation was intruduced it may be earier.

 

But it may be used in 127(1) As it could be said to be missleading the purchessor into buying a product that was not correctly described as per the act.

 

Me again sticking my neck out but it needs looking at i don't think we could use it in connection with section127(4).

 

But i am pretty sure that the failure to prvide an executed. 2nd copy complete with creditors sig under section 63 would mean that the agreement would be unenforceable

[Peterbard]

Hi Nico

I take it you are refering to the repeal of section 127(3)

 

There is no mention of what you have been told in the transitional arangements in the bill. As far as any thing i have read is concerned the repeal is only effective on agreements made on or after april six.

 

Regards

Peter

[angry cat]

AC, if you really are that hacked off you could consider a private prosecution. BBC (through their agents) do this all the time against errant licence fee payers. I haven't done this myself but I gather you approach the magistrates court and seek a summons against the alleged offender. At the time of the application you would (I presume) have to put a case before the magistrate before they would agree to the summons.

 

I have a case on the go against MBNA at the moment and I'm seriously considering this step if it comes to it.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

 

Thanks Lantana...my favourite flower.

 

I believe that I will have to bring a private prosecution against MS at the end of the day! Or, just sit tight, wait for them to come to me and..then counterclaim. Prudence, or Common Sense tells me to wait, that is until I receive any notification about their next move, TS have requested that MS write to me regarding their opinion (based upon the ('notorious') rule 3 of the 1983 regs.

 

Re: The MS next move...could I ask again if anyone could post the relevant regs:- 3 & 7 of the Consumer Credit Amendments 1983 Regs (Cancellation Notices & Copies of Documents)

I cannot download them on my computer as they are all in pdf format, I need a html format.

 

On a lighter point, this week I am going to plant my organic veggies (because I probably will not be able to buy any food in the future) and a grape vine, then I can make my own wine, rather than buying cheaper supermarket chain...Value Plonk!

Failing that, I suppose, that I could venture into the forest/woods, gather nettles, elderflowers etc., and...all the while the fat cats at MS dine on Foie gras and the best clarets. All paid for by us the consumer.

 

Love AC

 

Thanks

Love AC

[paulwlton]

Question: what exactly should a statement of account contain for the creditor to comply with a CCA request.

 

Paul

 

The reason i asked is a creditor has not provided a copy of my loan agreement but has forwarded a statement of account, imo to comply with a cca request the statement of account should be correct, in my case the statement of account is £8000 greater than the true amount.

[paulwlton]

anyhow ml55 back to business (we are all in the same team)

 

Rules on credit agreements | Business Link

 

good link her to the key points on credit agreements

 

QUESTION FOR INK

 

THE KEY FINANCIAL POINTS INFORMATION

 

AS PER THIS LINK

Rules on credit agreements | Business Link

 

 

 

ARE THEY ---- MEANING THE KEY POINTS ----

 

 

THE "PRESCRIBED TERMS" THAT WERE ORIGINALLY TALKED ABOUT IN SAY THE 1983 REGS ????

 

 

KEY POINTS

1)THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT

2)THE TERM OF THE CREDIT

3)THE TOTAL AMOUNT PAYABLE

4)THE APR

 

YOU MUST ALSO PROVIDE INFORMATION ON THE RATE OF INTEREST , DEFAULT AND EARLY PAYMENT AND OTHER CHARGES SO THAT CUSTOMERS CAN COMPARE DIFFERENT DEALS BEFORE MAKING UP THEIR MINDS

 

ANOTHER QUESTION IS WHAT YEAR EXECUTED AGREEMENT WISE DO THESE KEY POINTS APPLY TO

 

SAY 2000 2001 NOR WHAT???

 

 

These are the prescribed terms incorrectly stating these precludes a court from enforcement.

 

Paul

[TideTurner]

Tide this is an ERC

 

I'll get my coat...

[m55dlc]

The reason i asked is a creditor has not provided a copy of my loan agreement but has forwarded a statement of account, imo to comply with a cca request the statement of account should be correct, in my case the statement of account is £8000 greater than the true amount.

 

That's what I took you to mean, and is why I posted what I did. IMO if they are stating that as the balance of your account, it is all of the more reason to contest it. If they cannot back it up (and they have to be able to substansiate it:)

 

together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer

 

I take this to mean that they can be asked to show how they have come to this sum by a judge if questioned (and possibly by you if you question it).

[paulwlton]

That's what I took you to mean, and is why I posted what I did. IMO if they are stating that as the balance of your account, it is all of the more reason to contest it. If they cannot back it up (and they have to be able to substansiate it:)

 

together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer

 

I take this to mean that they can be asked to show how they have come to this sum by a judge if questioned (and possibly by you if you question it).

 

They cannot substansiate this, not only have they failed in their obligation to supply a true copy of the agreement they have misstated a statement of account.

 

Awaiting a hearing, will update on this thread.

 

Paul

[tamadus]

Thanks Lantana...my favourite flower.

 

I believe that I will have to bring a private prosecution against MS at the end of the day! Or, just sit tight, wait for them to come to me and..then counterclaim. Prudence, or Common Sense tells me to wait, that is until I receive any notification about their next move, TS have requested that MS write to me regarding their opinion (based upon the ('notorious') rule 3 of the 1983 regs.

 

Re: The MS next move...could I ask again if anyone could post the relevant regs:- 3 & 7 of the Consumer Credit Amendments 1983 Regs (Cancellation Notices & Copies of Documents)

I cannot download them on my computer as they are all in pdf format, I need a html format.

 

On a lighter point, this week I am going to plant my organic veggies (because I probably will not be able to buy any food in the future) and a grape vine, then I can make my own wine, rather than buying cheaper supermarket chain...Value Plonk!

Failing that, I suppose, that I could venture into the forest/woods, gather nettles, elderflowers etc., and...all the while the fat cats at MS dine on Foie gras and the best clarets. All paid for by us the consumer.

 

Love AC

 

Thanks

Love AC

 

AC, I assume you mean SI 1983/1557 in which case here it is:

 

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru­ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the .

Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.

 

 

and in all its glory the now famous section 7:

 

, Copies of agreements or security instruments where the agreement or security instrument has been varied

7.--(1) Where an agreement has been varied in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act, every copy of the executed agreement given to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act other than section 85(1) shall include either-

(a) an easily legible copy of the latest notice of variation given in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act relating to each discrete term of the agreement which has been varied; or

(b) an easily legible statement of the terms of the agreement as varied in accordance with section 82( 1) of the Act.

(2) Where a security provided in relation to a regulated agreement has been varied, every copy of the security instrument relating to it given to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall include either-

(a) an easily legible copy of any document varying the security; or (b) an easily legible statement of the terms of the security as varied.

[Cornucopia]

They cannot substansiate this, not only have they failed in their obligation to supply a true copy of the agreement they have misstated a statement of account.

 

Awaiting a hearing, will update on this thread.

 

Paul

 

Sorry people for interrupting, am on pain of death for being on here and am trying to sneakily catch up whilst under the influence (this doesn't sound good does it?).....

 

Can I just ask you to confirm the following :

 

a) The amendments to the regulations that came in force this month only apply to agreements taken out after April 2007 and not previous agreements.

 

b) Is it OK for the creditor to issue a statement with your "agreement" (and I apply this term loosely:rolleyes:) along the lines of :

 

You owe x amount to so and so and you must pay x amount by this date.

 

Signed.....Evil previous creditor (debt now passed to evil DCA).

 

I thought a statement should be rather more detailed?

 

Thanks.

 

Regards,

 

Inebriated Corn x:o

[m55dlc]

Corn, it has to state:

 

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

 

So, a), b) and c) are covered. Not a WW special was it?

[itsmeandonlyme]

Hello Guys just a quick question: store card account's closed...claiming unlawful charges plus PPI plus contractual...under CCA they supplied only application form...i do not remember signing proper agreement...Legal officer confirms, that after application has been accepted...they sent me T&C separately...she also said that Creation Finance are not responcible for the sales techniques of the store staff..but on the application under the signuture of their part says: Creation Finance Services(LTD)....There is no APR on the apllication, and the copy is so bad..i can hardly read a customer declaration section....

can they supply the copy that you can't read???? ))))if it gets toi the court..the judge would hardly read anything

I am sure they do not have an agreement copy...

How do you register default when deadline expaires? Can you please point me on any link/thread?when the deadline expires do i need to contact OFT?I am desputing the fact of the sales of PPI....as i understood whithout the properly executed agreement thay were not allowed to apply unlawfull charges and PPI to my account...???

 

Thank you

 

kind regards,

 

 

Maria

[paulwlton]

Barclaycard still in default since October. non compliance CCA: legibility of agreement, account still in dispute sec 85.

[Cornucopia]

Corn, it has to state:

 

(a) the state of the account, and

 

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

 

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

 

So, a), b) and c) are covered. Not a WW special was it?

 

M! What a surprise!

 

Er, yes it was, as you no doubt know.......I take it that two lines and a squiggle to cover the above are not entirely sufficient?