NCP towed my car from train car park for non payment of private parking tickets

[Sirdan]

they now saying the forwarding my complaint to their legal team

and they will call me

 

they really do stand by hte claim that the can claim from the owner

 

here are the T&Cs the keep refering too

You acknowledge that you enter into this contract with us on the basis

of these Terms and Conditions not only on behalf of yourself, but also on

behalf of any passengers in the vehicle and the legal owner of the vehicle.

This means that we may enforce these Terms and Conditions against

you or any passenger or the legal owner of the vehicle. Equally, you, any

passenger and the legal owner of the vehicle can enforce these Terms and

Conditions against us.

 

 

 

What utter drivel, the acceptance of said contract is confirmed by the driver parking the car....this person can not agree on behalf of any other person that they too are bound by the contract ..particularly if they are not even present to read the T & C's.

[Jamberson]

Get on and report it to the police. It's been stolen from you. It's yours and they can't take it away because they say you owe them some money.

[BASFORDLAD2]

Couldnt you get a court injunction?

[green_and_mean]

Get on and report it to the police. It's been stolen from you.

 

What offence has been commited? As I have already pointed out its not theft its a civil dispute the vehicle has been towed for an alledged breach of contract its not down to the Police to decide on what contract is valid and which is not that is what Courts are for.

[jpm321]

spoke to police and they said they would attend but it is a civil case and they cant get involved

just be there to stop any breech of the peace

 

sent a letter to NCP sking the questions raised above the removal company are very un helpful and are standing by NCP

and he qouted leins and taking without drivers consent etc

 

think calling police is going to cause me more trouble

[DBC]

What offence has been commited? As I have already pointed out its not theft its a civil dispute the vehicle has been towed for an alledged breach of contract its not down to the Police to decide on what contract is valid and which is not that is what Courts are for.

 

So does that mean that if my neighbour owes me some money I can seize his lawnmower and keep it until he pays me? I don't think so. I would have to take him to court and sue him for the money. This is no different from NCP case. They just cannot bypass the legal process because it suits them.

[Jamberson]

What offence has been commited? As I have already pointed out its not theft its a civil dispute the vehicle has been towed for an alledged breach of contract its not down to the Police to decide on what contract is valid and which is not that is what Courts are for.

 

The offence is theft.

 

NCP cannot seek remedy to an alleged breach of contract by seizing property. They need to sue. As you point out, the police are in no position to assert the contract was valid in any case.

[jpm321]

Called the recovery guy and he was a bit funny about me going into his compound for some reason

He then said he would bring my car out on a lorry so I can get my belongings

Wonder if I should jump in and stay put

Don't think he can drive off with me in the car

Nothing illegal about looking me self in my car

[green_and_mean]

The offence is theft.

 

NCP cannot seek remedy to an alleged breach of contract by seizing property. They need to sue. As you point out, the police are in no position to assert the contract was valid in any case.

 

It seems the Police agree with me and so does the statute I will repeat for the 4th time today.....theft is the only when goods are dishonestly appropriated with the intention of permanently depriving the other party of them

[green_and_mean]

So does that mean that if my neighbour owes me some money I can seize his lawnmower and keep it until he pays me? I don't think so. I would have to take him to court and sue him for the money. This is no different from NCP case. They just cannot bypass the legal process because it suits them.

 

Provided no other offence was commited then in theory yes you could, however you could not break into his house to get the lawn mower.

[sailor sam]

Provided no other offence was commited then in theory yes you could, however you could not break into his house to get the lawn mower.

 

Makes you wonder then why we have small claims courts if you can recover property without a court order yourself from someone owes you money.

 

Let's not forget (and I have said this more than once today also), that the alledged debt results from unenforceable parking 'fines' so techically there is no debt in the first place. The only 'debt' NCP can legally persue is losses or damages which no doubt are far less than what the charges they are claiming are.

 

I say again, the OPs car has been taken unlawfully so it was me, I would calmly go down to my local police station, ask to speak to a propper police officer and sit down to explain the whole situation, pointing out that NCP have taken the car without a court order.

[DBC]

It's not only theft, it might even be blackmail by holding onto something until they pay up.

[green_and_mean]

It's not only theft, it might even be blackmail by holding onto something until they pay up.

 

How can it be theft and blackmail??? Its only blackmail if the person doesn't have reasonable belief that they have a right to make the demand.

[DBC]

G&M are you aware of the simple tenant of English law that one private citizen ( in this case NCP) cannot punish another private citizen ( the motorist). Thats why we have the courts (either criminal or civil) . It's their job to decide the punishment, not some Tom Dick or Harry. Otherwise you have the breakdown or law and order and the start of vigilantism. You cannot just take the law into your own hands.

[green_and_mean]

G&M are you aware of the simple tenant of English law that one private citizen ( in this case NCP) cannot punish another private citizen ( the motorist). Thats why we have the courts (either criminal or civil) . It's their job to decide the punishment, not some Tom Dick or Harry. Otherwise you have the breakdown or law and order and the start of vigilantism. You cannot just take the law into your own hands.

 

It maybe morally wrong but throwing wild allegations of theft and blackmail around is not only defamatory its legally incorrect. No one even knows how the 'debts' were incurred or what they are for or how much yet it now seems everyone is an expert and knows they are 'unenforceable' maybe if people stuck to she facts rather than just jump in feet first we would get to the bottom of the matter.

[DBC]

But they still can't take the law into their own hands. That's what courts are for. Are you saying they everyone should take direct action and bypass the court system? That's what NCP are attempting.

Edited September 21, 2011 by DBC

[afcwben]

Forget the police they will not want to be invilved in a civil matter, take legal action

[DBC]

Or you could follow G&M's peculiar line of reasoning and seize some property belonging to NCP, with the threat that you won't return it until you get your car back.

[2ltr16valve]

Or you could follow G&M's peculiar line of reasoning and seize some property belonging to NCP, with the threat that you won't return it until you get your car back.

 

:lol:

 

Go an seize their ticket machines ! LOL !!!

 

(joking)

[sailor sam]

It maybe morally wrong but throwing wild allegations of theft and blackmail around is not only defamatory its legally incorrect. No one even knows how the 'debts' were incurred or what they are for or how much yet it now seems everyone is an expert and knows they are 'unenforceable' maybe if people stuck to she facts rather than just jump in feet first we would get to the bottom of the matter.

 

I'm sticking to the facts which have been presented by the OP. NCP have obviously issued a number of Parking Charge Notices against the vehicle which have now been aimed at the RK. As you are well aware, private PCNs are merely invoices as under English law, they cannot be penalties of fines. Clearly NCP (as with all PPCs), want people to just pay up as they know that esculating matters to court will almost certianly end in failure because the charge will be disproportinate to a 'loss' so will be considered to be a penalty and subsiquently will be thrown out. So they resort into what is (in my mind), extortion by either clamping or towing away. The latter without a court order surely is illegal because they are claiming that they have done it to force the owner to pay for the outstanding 'charges' which (in court) would be unenforceable. Earlier, you threw in the 'lien' approach but NCP cannot use it because they have not provided a service or repair on the car or fitted any property to it which is theirs. As I have said on this thread many times now, NCP are intitled to persue losses or damages from the OP. But they would have to be proportinate to the original parking fees.

 

So based on what the OP has stated, the car has been taken unlawfully because A) the debt can not be enforced (unless tested in court) and B) it has been taken by a person or persons with no legal authority.

 

My advice to the OP stands.

[green_and_mean]

I'm sticking to the facts which have been presented by the OP. NCP have obviously issued a number of Parking Charge Notices against the vehicle which have now been aimed at the RK. As you are well aware, private PCNs are merely invoices as under English law, they cannot be penalties of fines. Clearly NCP (as with all PPCs), want people to just pay up as they know that esculating matters to court will almost certianly end in failure because the charge will be disproportinate to a 'loss' so will be considered to be a penalty and subsiquently will be thrown out. So they resort into what is (in my mind), extortion by either clamping or towing away. The latter without a court order surely is illegal because they are claiming that they have done it to force the owner to pay for the outstanding 'charges' which (in court) would be unenforceable. Earlier, you threw in the 'lien' approach but NCP cannot use it because they have not provided a service or repair on the car or fitted any property to it which is theirs. As I have said on this thread many times now, NCP are intitled to persue losses or damages from the OP. But they would have to be proportinate to the original parking fees.

 

So based on what the OP has stated, the car has been taken unlawfully because A) the debt can not be enforced (unless tested in court) and B) it has been taken by a person or persons with no legal authority.

 

My advice to the OP stands.

 

How can it be obvious, have you seen the tickets or the correspondance between the two parties?? I think you seem to have missed the point where the OP took your advice and went to the Police only to have them agree with me that its a civil matter. It may be that the vehicle is being held unlawfully and it may be that the car has been parking without payment but that is a civil matter NOT a criminal matter. Just because you don't like something or agree with the way something has been done doesn't make it a crime.

[jpm321]

Well decided not to go to recovery guy tonight as received a call from a guy at the BPA who is interested in hearing my case

Don't think they can get involved but thinks how companies like ncp get DVLA info by being a member

He going to call me tomorrow so maybe see what he can suggest

If nothing happens tomorrow I guess I'm going to drop in on the recovery guy

Maybe if the police don't want to get involved in a civil matter that's fine , but NCP actions are result of civil matter too

Hopefully they won't allow my car to be kept without a court order

Edited September 21, 2011 by jpm321

[Jamberson]

In my view you are being far too forgiving. If it were me I would be saying stuff the BPA and whatever they suggest, stuff NCP and their evasive tactics, stuff the guy at the pound - I'd go back to the police and kick up a fuss - I am in no doubt your car has been stolen. They have absolutely no right to deprive you of it or to keep it until they decide you've given them what they want. This is not a civil dispute, it is theft. The police have a duty to intervene.

[green_and_mean]

This is not a civil dispute, it is theft. The police have a duty to intervene.

 

Fortunately the Police have some legal training and know what theft is and isn't so they will probably just tell him to get a solicitor.

[Jamberson]

I don't believe you reasoning is tenable G&M. But for the sake of argument, if you believe that NCP have not deprived the owner "permanently" - can you explain why it would not be theft if I lift your car onto a truck and when you ask for it back I tell you that you had a contract with me not to park it next to a lamppost, as indicated by a sign I put up in the outer Hebrides, and that you can have it back as soon as you pay me £150,000, a current photo of Lord Lucan and a unicorn's horn?

 

By your logic, that's not theft because it's not permanent - you can get your car back by meeting my demand, however valid, reasonable or legal. The police cannot intervene because it's a civil dispute between you and I?? Surely you don't believe that?

 

As for the police's "legal training"... they would indeed suggest you consult a solicitor when they don't know what to do, and for good reason! In this case, they ought to know better and there's no need for a solicitor.